Because, who would want to sit there and read it all in one post?
For sure, it did not take me one day, one writing, one method to research all of this.
This has been ongoing for me for decades.
Shaolin Monks
- Thread starter Dan Hobson
- Start date
Because, who would want to sit there and read it all in one post?
For sure, it did not take me one day, one writing, one method to research all of this.
This has been ongoing for me for decades.
Thanks Kirk
You have proven my point
Strange that you post this.
Because this is EXACTLY what people HAVE been doing for DECADES!
(Caps are not shouting but for emphasis)
Gentle Fist
Master Black Belt
Not trying to be sarcastic but spreading it out in multiple posts, that are all in order uninterrupted by any other user; is no different than one long post...
*Noted*
That would be a matter of opinion.
For some, who may have a short attention span, it would be easier to digest it from multiple.
Doe's it really matter?
Again... doe's it really matter?
Yes. I had cut & paste. It is from writings and research of this subject for sometime.
My background in CMA is from a family art that many have not heard of
My overall martial art background spans over 40 years.
That said, information about Shaolin takes a little research from a unbiased approach
lklawson
Grandmaster
You might find a way to re-phrase that because stated that way, it sounds a lot like, "any disagreement with this is because it's biased."
As to whether or not anyone has heard of that "family art," go ahead and post the name and lineage. The internet is big and someone, somewhere, knows about it.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
That's cool. I've been around the block a while & a few times. In fact I'm still making my way down the block taking notes as I go. Who're from again?
Siu Lum doesn't earn nut riding status around here for most folks, so you might be suprised if you ease up from the great debunker posture. The majority of folks on here aren't rookies.
Indeed
However, I am not looking for a disagreement.
Therefore, you had posted/asked about my status of knowledge or accumulaton thereof.
I was big with the Idea of Shaolin.
In other words, so "into it", that I was "biased".
Then, as I started to research without a biased approached, I discovered other opposing information.
If you see my starting approach (post #11) it starts off with;
Like anything, research goes a long way.
It would be up to the reader/researcher to accept the data;
Therefore, like Chi, God or Religion, it is up to reader/person to accept or reject in accordance to their belief.
Which in some cases, a belief is borderline of a opinion
(AND if you read my beginning post of my long "cut and paste", i.e. explaining myth, and so forth, give reasons why I formed such a belief or opinion.)
As I stated before;
You can lead a horse to water..........
As for researching a family martial art lineage, I have tried, the internet isn't that vast. But vast enough to find more opposing views of Shaolin monks
Even those in CMA, although they can point a lineage, that lineage/history is also skeptical and shakey as well.
Especially if it leads back to some sort of Shaolin connection.
(As I pointed out for Vsing Tsun and a link)
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Great, when there are some that have “been around the block”
But that does not totally stand forth of why such a person should remain in a gray area of complacency.
The core issue of the entire martial art history or lineage is shrouded and much of it is asking for followers to be complacent.
Japanese can hold dearly onto their culture from a sense of complacency and pride, regardless of them not owning up to some data that they actually received some knowledge from outside source. For example, renaming Tode to Karate. And as well as many industrial advances from other countries.
Not to “single-out the Japanese, but other cultures do this as well.
The Chinese can milk Shaolin (why the government allows such exposure)
Koreans can knock people off horses and refer to their TKD as centuries old.
And so forth in martial arts history/lineage
The “accepted complacency” of martial art history/lineage can approach a level of fantasy.
People like to hold onto their fantasy and do not consider such complacency as delusional. They would rather believe in an unproven chain of history/lineage than face the possibility that someone created something during a time of chaos and poor record keeping, stretching facts
I can agree about what you stated about a “great debunking posture”, however,
I could choose to tread lightly on someone’s “accepted complacency”.
As I had such the same level of “accepted complacency”, but I choose to review all data. Therefore, why I started my opening piece with the examination of “myth”
I am not trying to rain on someone’s parade, like a horse to water, I cannot make them carry a umbrella if I see dark clouds and they do not.
Ignorance is bliss, and there are a lot of happy people out there.
The most important thing to note is; believe in what you will and enjoy what you like....
Just don't try to urinate on me and tell me its raining
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Okay, I'll have a go at spelling this out to you, Rickster....
Ease up. You're presenting the attitude that what you believe is the one, true, pure, only truth, and everyone else is running around with their eyes closed and their ears covered. You're actually using almost the exact same rhetoric that another member does to defend his training under the auspices of some of the most well-known frauds in existance.. but when that's pointed out to him, he says we should look at the "evidence" without "bias"... and offers no actual backup whatsoever.
You're not the only one who's been there, or done that. In fact, you might not be the most informed person on the board, even in this area. After all, this post of yours has a number of issues....
So now the reason that there is confusion about true history is that people are lazy? There's quite a difference between believing one take on history and being too lazy to search out contradictory stories.
Really? Hmm.... maybe in some of what you do.
I'm sorry, complacency and pride? Lazy, but proud of it? Are you sure you're not being a little biased yourself in your take on other peoples takes on things here?
As far as the rest of that, can you provide any actual evidence whatsoever? I'm not familiar with the Japanese ever claiming what you seem to say they have... Tode (Te) was the Okinawan art that was popularly re-named Karate (ostensibly for the Japanese market, really) in the 1930's, and there's never been any claim otherwise. As far as industrial advances, huh? You're really not getting things close to right there....
So the government uses the Shaolin temple for a tourist trap... okay. And that means what, exactly? Is it still a temple? Is it still a monastery? Does that mean that there are monks there? Wouldn't that make them Shaolin monks? Hmm...
When it comes to the martial history of said monks (leaving off for the minute some issues with your cut-and-paste articles), there is a difference between passing along a story which is symbolic, and claiming that to be the actual historical occurances, which I don't think has happened. I think you once took them as such, though, which has lead to you looking to debunking it wherever you can.
Oh, there's huge numbers of discussions on that... how realistic do you think it is to believe that TKD practitioners believe such ideas?
So you think that you've gotten the "real deal" from a time of chaos and poor record keeping, stretching facts...? Hmm....
Hmm, you really do love that word... "accepted complacency" (accepted laziness?), "false complacency" in another thread (false laziness... is that industriousness?). Not sure if you really get it's meaning.
And as far as reviewing "all data"... hmm, perhaps all that you've come across so far would be a little more accurate.
Oh, and your take on what a myth is is way out, by the way. You're talking about a few different concepts, such as cultural legends, and apocryphal stories.
Yeah... that's the attitude we're talking about.
Ease up. You're presenting the attitude that what you believe is the one, true, pure, only truth, and everyone else is running around with their eyes closed and their ears covered. You're actually using almost the exact same rhetoric that another member does to defend his training under the auspices of some of the most well-known frauds in existance.. but when that's pointed out to him, he says we should look at the "evidence" without "bias"... and offers no actual backup whatsoever.
You're not the only one who's been there, or done that. In fact, you might not be the most informed person on the board, even in this area. After all, this post of yours has a number of issues....
So now the reason that there is confusion about true history is that people are lazy? There's quite a difference between believing one take on history and being too lazy to search out contradictory stories.
Really? Hmm.... maybe in some of what you do.
I'm sorry, complacency and pride? Lazy, but proud of it? Are you sure you're not being a little biased yourself in your take on other peoples takes on things here?
As far as the rest of that, can you provide any actual evidence whatsoever? I'm not familiar with the Japanese ever claiming what you seem to say they have... Tode (Te) was the Okinawan art that was popularly re-named Karate (ostensibly for the Japanese market, really) in the 1930's, and there's never been any claim otherwise. As far as industrial advances, huh? You're really not getting things close to right there....
So the government uses the Shaolin temple for a tourist trap... okay. And that means what, exactly? Is it still a temple? Is it still a monastery? Does that mean that there are monks there? Wouldn't that make them Shaolin monks? Hmm...
When it comes to the martial history of said monks (leaving off for the minute some issues with your cut-and-paste articles), there is a difference between passing along a story which is symbolic, and claiming that to be the actual historical occurances, which I don't think has happened. I think you once took them as such, though, which has lead to you looking to debunking it wherever you can.
Oh, there's huge numbers of discussions on that... how realistic do you think it is to believe that TKD practitioners believe such ideas?
So you think that you've gotten the "real deal" from a time of chaos and poor record keeping, stretching facts...? Hmm....
Hmm, you really do love that word... "accepted complacency" (accepted laziness?), "false complacency" in another thread (false laziness... is that industriousness?). Not sure if you really get it's meaning.
And as far as reviewing "all data"... hmm, perhaps all that you've come across so far would be a little more accurate.
Oh, and your take on what a myth is is way out, by the way. You're talking about a few different concepts, such as cultural legends, and apocryphal stories.
Yeah... that's the attitude we're talking about.
Amazing. You spent the time to think(?) that out, put it on the board & still skip the basic question.
With this new found outlook & need to to do something meaningful to help get rid of "accepted complacency" (I think... at least that's what I'm picking up on)... you're still able to not answer my question that should help shed light maybe to your position.
Who are you from? Where did you come across this fountain of knowledge that allowed you to see past the marketing veil of the PRC & the shroud of time with the history and (wait for it!!)... lore & legends... surrounding the temple & her two divisons of monks.
Inquiring minds want to know.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Pardon me, but could you please tell me where you are from, your ethnicity, and whether or not you self-identify as a Budist?Peace favor your sword, Kirk (mobile)
Yep, I "spelled it out". Whenever someone comes along with opposing data from what they had cherished, they do get offensive. As for "back-up" I gave resources. I guess you had not read the opening statement from the first passage:
Like anything, research goes a long way.
It would be up to the reader/researcher to accept the data;
Lazy? Nah, it is about holding onto, or cherishing a idea. People take offense whenever something goes against this.
All cultures have this, if you had READ;
Not to “single-out the Japanese, but other cultures do this as well.
Not sure what you are saying here. But the Japanese took a martial art from Okinawa and gave it their own name reference because they had invaded and tried to de-culutrized it. They had tried to do this to Korea and China as well. It was extreme Asian pride and bullying. The turn of modernization and industrialization bought forced changes to Japan. They did not desire it, but knew they needed it. It was a "matter of face", A.K.A./"pride", to not show this so openingly. Pre WWII, the US gave Japan many industrial things, especially raw material like metal-steel. Post WWII, after Japan's "unconditional" surrender, the US gave Japan latest industrial advances to help them. Almost everything Japan has created since modernization era, was copied or burrowed from somewhere else, and Japan tried to keep a national "pride" on it. From guns/military, motorcycles, steel, etc., if it weren't from outside sources, Japan would not have been included in modern era. As I stated, they did not desire non-Japanese ideas, but they knew they needed it. They have a aura of *Asian pride to not give in to how they came to receive any out sources. Another reference to complacency is vainglory, and certainly Japan has this
That said, I have to reiterate;
**Not to “single-out the Japanese, but other cultures do this as well.
Ok, so I make a Katana Sword in the US using modern steel (say I purchased the steel from Japan) and called it a Katana. I market it as a Japanese sword and sell thousands of it to people whom think its the real deal. Is it still a authentic Katana sword? According to your statement, it has to be, because it is still a sword, it looks like a Katana and I call it that.
Yes. You are hitting it. As I had stated, Complacency at its finest.
*** People like to hold onto their fantasy and do not consider such complacency as delusional. They would rather believe in an unproven chain of history/lineage than face the possibility that someone created something during a time of chaos and poor record keeping, stretching facts
Ditto on *, **, ***
I could post a whole thread on this and disturb another ant pile there.
Nope. I think others try to remain complacent than face opposing data. So much they cherish, that they take offense
Complacency may not mean lazy. It could also mean a lot of other things. Complacent people may not be lazy, but they tend to get offensive when there is opposing data/views, upon things they cherish.
Accurate? I gave resources and I had stated, since the beginning;
Yes. You have proven my point. THANK YOU. This IS exactly how martial art history and lineage is....
"cultural legends, and apocryphal stories"
Yeah. Complacent people taking offense to opposing data
So, if I had studied in Korea, China, or Japan under known lineages, does this make a big difference?
Hmmmn, *perhaps* I took on this position because, *perhaps* I have and soon realized how "complacent" I was.
Please read post #37
Buddhist?
*Perhaps* by chance, being exposed to Buddhists and Buddhism which open my eyes from complacency.
Go ahead and read the Kalama Suttra and try to understand its underlying meaning.
This can apply to martial arts (as well as religion) in a crude, but accurate manner
Hey, everybody, let's try to debate the issues, not attack each other. It's important to realize that, in text, you lose the nuances that come from facial expression and tone of voice. Sometimes, your message can get lost due to the delivery style. Remember, MartialTalk is supposed to a friendly place... Attacks at each other kind of get in the way of that, y'know?
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