Shadow Boxing vs Kata fallacy argument.

[Kung Fu Wang]

What did your throwing knives look like.

I used to make my own throwing knifes from diamond shape hand file by using a hand grander. To make the blade is easy. The hard part is to make the handle. I collected some plastic bags, melt it into black glue, wrap it around the end of the blade, wait it to cool off, and use knife to make it into handle shape. This kind of handle will not break when drop on the ground.

My throwing knife look like this:

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Once I taught a Taiji class for the Chinese community. I intend to finish the 108 moves long Taiji form within 3 months. We met once a week, 2 house a class. After 3 weeks, I found out that students still could not remember the initial 12 moves.

A: Do you people train at home?
B: No! We don't.
A: ...

There is nothing that a teacher can do if students don't want to train at home.

This is the tough part for motivated teachers. We want to move folks forward, but can only move as fast as their commitment. And in group classes that gets especially frustrating at times.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Let me find out you were a hitman in the old days lol.

Right after the 4 seas gang leader in Taiwan was shot by a foreign hitman, I went back to Taiwan and got in a Taxi from airport back to Taipei. The taxi driver asked me why I came back to Taiwan for. I told him that I would helping my brothers to settle down some business (I was joking). Since I had long hair back then, the Taxi driver was afraid to take my taxi fair. The taxi driver thought I was a hitman too.

 

[drop bear]

Here's the evidence. If you and I had a fight that only includes sweeping people, would you win?
If you and I had a fight that only includes using a staff could you beat me? I'm assuming you don't train staff.

We would have to do it and find out.

Either of our back stories don't make a bit of difference. There are no lies on the mat.

 

[drop bear]

How is it fantasy when I take walks with my staff?

I live in Georgia USA, and have seen many people walk around with guns and knives on their hip. That's not fantasy either. Here you are more likely to run into someone with a gun than a staff.

Because you are completely inventing the scenario. And so you have control of the narrative.

You didn't realise it but you forgot your staff that day. And I had two people with staffs and one of them was Monkey.

 

[Flying Crane]

I’ve taken a bit of the approach you posit. I don’t teach any of the traditional approaches (except where a student needs a slower approach) until a foundation curriculum has been covered. This takes a few weeks (usually less than 3 months), and could be held longer.

Ive seen forms taught as nearly the first thing for a student. Either little or no foundation training was done first, even fundamental techniques like a basic punch was left untaught until it was encountered in the form. And then the form becomes the entire practice. Foundation and fundamentals are never developed, technique is never drilled, application is never worked on even if application is shown on occasion as a way of giving context for the movement in the form. Form is simply done. I have received some instruction in this way as well. It never made sense to me.

I think traditionally it was never done that way. I don’t know when and how some schools started doing this.

When fundamentals are strongly developed, then quality is raised up for all aspects of training. Training forms becomes more effective, training on the heavy bag becomes more effective, partner drills become more effective, sparring in whatever manifestation it is done becomes more effective. If the fundamentals are not developed, then all of those other aspects of training become less effective and move closer to just movement without purpose. It’s funny how when more time is spent on one aspect of training, fundamentals, then everything is elevated and the benefits of all other aspects of training real greater results. And it’s a smarter use of time.

Let’s say you practice for an hour and you are unsatisfied with your progress. You practice a little bit of fundamentals, a little bit of forms, a little bit of heavy bag, a little bit of partner drills, and a little bit of sparring. And it doesn’t seem to be adding up.

So you decide you need more training, and you double or even triple the time spent on each section. So now you train two or even three hours and while you may see greater progress, it becomes difficult to dedicate so much of your time to regular training.

What is the solution? Focus on the fundamentals. Really dig into it and be mindful of it and spend more of the training time on it. Now maybe you’ve added 15 minute or a half hour to your training session, instead of adding one or two hours. But the quality of that time is higher. You don’t need to pile on more time with the other things. If the fundamentals are improved, and that mindfulness is applied to all the other aspects, then they will all improve. You can improve your overall quality without dramatically increasing your time, if you focus your efforts properly.

If I spend little time on my fundamentals, and spend two hours practicing all my forms five times each, I end up exhausted and with poor quality. But if I spend an hour on my fundamentals and then spend a half hour doing all my forms once, the quality of all of it is higher and I’ve saved a half hour.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Because you are completely inventing the scenario. And so you have control of the narrative.

You didn't realise it but you forgot your staff that day. And I had two people with staffs and one of them was Monkey.

So having a staff with me is one scenario but unbelievable, yet not having a staff with is another scenario but that's believable, yet there are tons of situations where people use bats is that believable? Not sure how people swinging bats is a thing. I own a bat too. Instead of picking up a bat I can pick up a staff.

People in the U.S. get shot with shot guns, hand guns, stun, guns, pepper spray, arrows, stabbed with knives, cut with swords, ran over by cars, hit with brick, hit with bats, hit with chairs, hit with trash cans, but me hitting someone with a staff is unrealistic?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ive seen forms taught as nearly the first thing for a student. Either little or no foundation training was done first, even fundamental techniques like a basic punch was left untaught until it was encountered in the form.

It took a few months before I could even begin my first form. They made me learn the basic punches and kicks. At one point I almost thought I wasn't going to be taught any forms.

 

[drop bear]

So having a staff with me is one scenario but unbelievable, yet not having a staff with is another scenario but that's believable, yet there are tons of situations where people use bats is that believable? Not sure how people swinging bats is a thing. I own a bat too. Instead of picking up a bat I can pick up a staff.

People in the U.S. get shot with shot guns, hand guns, stun, guns, pepper spray, arrows, stabbed with knives, cut with swords, ran over by cars, hit with brick, hit with bats, hit with chairs, hit with trash cans, but me hitting someone with a staff is unrealistic?

All of the situations we make up are made up.

 

[JowGaWolf]

All of the situations we make up are made up.

There is nothing wrong with giving a realistic scenario and then coming up with a realistic reaction based on your personality and resources available . Most of us call it planning. When we plan we often plan for things that may or may not happen. Contingency plans are all about planning for things that we make up as we have no way of knowing if or when it happens.

You don't have to wait for something to happen in order to know how you would respond to a realistic scenario. You should know yourself and your abilities well enough to know what type of actions you would do in a scenario. As you can see from the videos, it didn't take kung fu skills for people to decide that they would hit someone with a stick.

Based on your logic these guys did not plan to use the swords or have the swords around for the purpose of defending themselves against robbers. I can guarantee that they ran the scenario "if someone breaks into my store and I have my sword, then this is what I'm going to do." One day it happened and One day they did exactly what they said they would do.

 

[drop bear]

There is nothing wrong with giving a realistic scenario and then coming up with a realistic reaction based on your personality and resources available . Most of us call it planning. When we plan we often plan for things that may or may not happen. Contingency plans are all about planning for things that we make up as we have no way of knowing if or when it happens.

You don't have to wait for something to happen in order to know how you would respond to a realistic scenario. You should know yourself and your abilities well enough to know what type of actions you would do in a scenario. As you can see from the videos, it didn't take kung fu skills for people to decide that they would hit someone with a stick.

Based on your logic these guys did not plan to use the swords or have the swords around for the purpose of defending themselves against robbers. I can guarantee that they ran the scenario "if someone breaks into my store and I have my sword, then this is what I'm going to do." One day it happened and One day they did exactly what they said they would do.

Yeah well in imaginary world I win all my fights whether I have a stick or not.

Because I know how cool I am.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2071495102915812

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah well in imaginary world I win all my fights whether I have a stick or not.

if you had a staff and someone PHYSICALLY attacked you. Would you not use the staff to defend yourself?
If you didn't have staff and someone PHYSICALLY attacked you. Would you or would use your hands to defend yourself?

It's not that difficult man.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It seems to me that MMA discussion and weapon training discussion don't go well together.

When my student's school had 3 person sparring format. When 2 persons spar, the 3rd person on the side can attack either person. The BJJ students in his school felt very uncomfortable with that kind of rule set.

Whenever I showed my spikes ring to my BJJ friends, I always made them to be mad at me big time.

I don't know how long will it take for people to feel comfortable about talking the following areas all together.

- MMA,
- Weapon,
- Rock/knife throwing,
- 1 against many,
- ...

Sometime we may forget that sport is only the "path". Combat will be our true goal.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It seems to me that MMA discussion and weapon training discussion don't go well together.

I didn't think it would be this difficult, since it's so basic. And all I was trying to do is explain the mindset of CMA. As a CMA practitioner that ring sums up the mindset that I've been speaking of. I'm not even shocked that you have something like that lol.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ive seen forms taught as nearly the first thing for a student. Either little or no foundation training was done first, even fundamental techniques like a basic punch was left untaught until it was encountered in the form. And then the form becomes the entire practice. Foundation and fundamentals are never developed, technique is never drilled, application is never worked on even if application is shown on occasion as a way of giving context for the movement in the form. Form is simply done. I have received some instruction in this way as well. It never made sense to me.

I think traditionally it was never done that way. I don’t know when and how some schools started doing this.

When fundamentals are strongly developed, then quality is raised up for all aspects of training. Training forms becomes more effective, training on the heavy bag becomes more effective, partner drills become more effective, sparring in whatever manifestation it is done becomes more effective. If the fundamentals are not developed, then all of those other aspects of training become less effective and move closer to just movement without purpose. It’s funny how when more time is spent on one aspect of training, fundamentals, then everything is elevated and the benefits of all other aspects of training real greater results. And it’s a smarter use of time.

Let’s say you practice for an hour and you are unsatisfied with your progress. You practice a little bit of fundamentals, a little bit of forms, a little bit of heavy bag, a little bit of partner drills, and a little bit of sparring. And it doesn’t seem to be adding up.

So you decide you need more training, and you double or even triple the time spent on each section. So now you train two or even three hours and while you may see greater progress, it becomes difficult to dedicate so much of your time to regular training.

What is the solution? Focus on the fundamentals. Really dig into it and be mindful of it and spend more of the training time on it. Now maybe you’ve added 15 minute or a half hour to your training session, instead of adding one or two hours. But the quality of that time is higher. You don’t need to pile on more time with the other things. If the fundamentals are improved, and that mindfulness is applied to all the other aspects, then they will all improve. You can improve your overall quality without dramatically increasing your time, if you focus your efforts properly.

If I spend little time on my fundamentals, and spend two hours practicing all my forms five times each, I end up exhausted and with poor quality. But if I spend an hour on my fundamentals and then spend a half hour doing all my forms once, the quality of all of it is higher and I’ve saved a half hour.

Okay, needed to wait until I was at a PC to reply.

I entirely agree that a bit of focus on fundamentals goes a long way toward helping with everything - including forms. I can (and used to) teach NGA's grappling starting from forms and focused mostly on forms (they're 2-man forms, with static starts), reinforcing with what we call "applications" (less-stylized versions, still with minimal chance of failure - think basic grappling drills). If I teach grappling fundamentals, and spend significant time on those, folks learn the techniques faster AND are better at the form. And they are able to actually apply the principles the forms are meant to teach in actual grappling/rolling situations.

Same goes for the punches and kicks. Some time focusing on the fundamentals (rather than a specific form) brings competency much more quickly.

Like you, I believe this is how it was meant to be, though I'm not sure I have more than a hunch and how I've seen people learn to back my belief.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It took a few months before I could even begin my first form. They made me learn the basic punches and kicks. At one point I almost thought I wasn't going to be taught any forms.

This is how I think it works best, when forms are involved.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ive seen forms taught as nearly the first thing for a student.

What do you think if this is taught on the 1st day?

I believe one can develop foundation through application (partner drill). I don't believe one can develop application through foundation. I have seen too many people who has good foundation but can't fight.

I like to teach this on the 1st day. I want all my students to know that I care more about application then foundation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What do you think if this is taught on the 1st day?

I believe one can develop foundation through application (partner drill). I don't believe one can develop application through foundation. I have seen too many people who has good foundation but can't fight.

I like to teach this on the 1st day. I want all my students to know that I care more about application then foundation.

It's entirely possible to develop a fantastic punch but no ability to apply it, by lacking footwork or some other component. I'd label those components "fundamentals". It's also possible to develop that problem by never sparring, and I know of no better solution to that problem than, well, sparring.

However, it's also possible to have theoretical ability to apply without foundation, which leads to useless application. Someone could develop great targeting and footwork, but have a punch that - even when landed - has little effect. That's application lacking fundamentals.

For real applicability, it has to have those fundamentals. To me, that kick is unlikely to be useful to most brand new students. They don't have the balance and timing to make it useful, to say nothing of the risk they're accepting with little payoff as reward.

 

[Flying Crane]

What do you think if this is taught on the 1st day?

I would never teach something like that on day one.

I believe one can develop foundation through application (partner drill). I don't believe one can develop application through foundation. I have seen too many people who has good foundation but can't fight.

I like to teach this on the 1st day. I want all my students to know that I care more about application then foundation.

I believe application is a distraction in the beginning, when foundation is being built. Application can he done, but if it is overdone then foundation never gets properly built. More application can come, but ought to wait a bit until foundation has a chance first.

When foundation is strong, application is much stronger. It is easy to dive straight into application, and never be as effective as it could be, because foundation is always “put off for later” which never becomes now. Foundation is often neglected indefinitely.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

However, it's also possible to have theoretical ability to apply without foundation, which leads to useless application.

The issue is one can still develop foundation when he is old. One cannot develop fighting experience when he is old. So sparring should be done when one is still young.

A: If I ever see you with my girlfriend again, I'll kill you.
B: I refuse to fight you until I have developed a strong MA foundation.

A: You have developed a strong foundation. Now you should test your skill in the ring, or on the mat.
B: But I'm already 50 years old with glaucoma. My eye doctor told me that I should not bend my head below my heart level.