Shadow Boxing vs Kata fallacy argument.

[Acronym]

Whever I see someone dismiss katas as a waste of time, there is always someone pointing to shadow boxing. These two practises are worlds apart.

Just a few differences:

Shadow boxing is spontaenous and fluid. Kata is a choreographed sequences of moves.

Kata is rigid, Shadow Boxing is relaxed.


And on and on.. How could anyone not see that the analogy fails?

 

[Headhunter]

So you’ve never done shadow boxing drills where you’re told what combination to throw?...e.g Instructor says do a jab cross hook, roundhouse kick...that’s exactly the same thing. But hey I’m sure you’ll have a smartass answer to come back with

 

[Acronym]

So you’ve never done shadow boxing drills where you’re told what combination to throw?...e.g Instructor says do a jab cross hook, roundhouse kick...that’s exactly the same thing. But hey I’m sure you’ll have a smartass answer to come back with

That's not kata.

 

[Headhunter]

That's not kata.

Sigh I give up with you...total waste of time

 

[Acronym]

Sigh I give up with you...total waste of time

Please do.

 

[Flying Crane]

Whever I see someone dismiss katas as a waste of time, there is always someone pointing to shadow boxing. These two practises are worlds apart.

Just a few differences:

Shadow boxing is spontaenous and fluid. Kata is a choreographed sequences of moves.

Kata is rigid, Shadow Boxing is relaxed.


And on and on.. How could anyone not see that the analogy fails?

Have you found something yet to train that makes sense to you and with which you can relate? I made that suggestion in a different thread. Instead of pointing out what, in your opinion, is wrong with what everyone else is doing your energy might be better spent finding something that is a good fit for you.

 

[Acronym]

Have you found something yet to train that makes sense to you and with which you can relate? I made that suggestion in a different thread. Instead of pointing out what, in your opinion, is wrong with what everyone else is doing your energy might be better spent finding something that is a good fit for you.

This is a discussion forum. Stick to the topic

 

[Steve]

So you’ve never done shadow boxing drills where you’re told what combination to throw?...e.g Instructor says do a jab cross hook, roundhouse kick...that’s exactly the same thing. But hey I’m sure you’ll have a smartass answer to come back with

It's not at all the same thing. Spontaneously reacting to a coach's prompts versus a pre-arranged, highly choreographed series of movements. They're both training exercises, but that's pretty much where the comparison begins and ends.

But hey, I'm sure you'll have a smartass answer to come back with. (Is this how we're ending all our posts now? If so, save yourself some time and put that in your signature line).

 

[Steve]

Have you found something yet to train that makes sense to you and with which you can relate? I made that suggestion in a different thread. Instead of pointing out what, in your opinion, is wrong with what everyone else is doing your energy might be better spent finding something that is a good fit for you.

Seems like a reasonable suggestion. More constructive.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is a discussion forum. Stick to the topic

I am.

What is the point in coming on to deride what is a common training method? You aren’t going to change anybody. Preaching here won’t gain converts. Nobody is going to suddenly see the light and stop practicing their kata, just because you came here and pointed out what you feel are kata’s shortcomings. All that happens is it turns into an argument between those who do kata and feel it has value, and those who do not. Nobody changes their mind about it. We have seen this discussion here over and over and over. You are contributing absolutely nothing new with this thread.

So find something meaningful to you, and pursue that. And don’t worry about what others do. That is irrelevant to you. You don’t need validation from anyone here. Pull on your big boy panties and make some decisions for yourself. And move on.

 

[Steve]

I am.

What is the point in coming on to deride what is a common training method? You aren’t going to change anybody. Preaching here won’t gain converts. Nobody is going to suddenly see the light and stop practicing their kata, just because you came here and pointed out what you feel are kata’s shortcomings. All that happens is it turns into an argument between those who do kata and feel it has value, and those who do not. Nobody changes their mind about it. We have seen this discussion here over and over and over. You are contributing absolutely nothing new with this thread.

So find something meaningful to you, and pursue that. And don’t worry about what others do. That is irrelevant to you. You don’t need validation from anyone here. Pull on your big boy panties and make some decisions for yourself. And move on.

When I read the OP, it seems like the main point is that kata and shadowboxing aren't the same thing.

So, are they or aren't they? Is there room for a civil discussion on that topic?

For what it's worth, I don't think they're very much alike, at all. From everything I've learned about kata reading countless threads on the subject here, it seems like they're intended to serve very different functions within training.

 

[lklawson]

Whever I see someone dismiss katas as a waste of time, there is always someone pointing to shadow boxing. These two practises are worlds apart.

Just a few differences:

Shadow boxing is spontaenous and fluid. Kata is a choreographed sequences of moves.

Kata is rigid, Shadow Boxing is relaxed.


And on and on.. How could anyone not see that the analogy fails?

hahahaha

Ask 5 Karateka what the purpose of Kata is and you'll get 10 different answers.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

When I read the OP, it seems like the main point is that kata and shadowboxing aren't the same thing.

So, are they or aren't they? Is there room for a civil discussion on that topic?

For what it's worth, I don't think they're very much alike, at all. From everything I've learned about kata reading countless threads on the subject here, it seems like they're intended to serve very different functions within training.

They're not. They're similar in that both allow you to drill your moves in combinations, but kata tend to be longer than shadowboxing combination (and as already stated lack the fluidity). You can take out parts of kata though, and do just bits as combinations which allows you to go from kata to the drills mentioned above.

Kata also doesn't have to be rigid. It can be just as 'relaxed' (put in quotes since I'm not 100% sure that's the right word) as shadowboxing, it really depends on the style and kata in question.

 

[drop bear]

OP is right.

If you were going to build a case for Kata it can't be built on the effectiveness of something else.

I mean let's go the other way jazz ballet has similarities to Kata and is not very effective for learning to fight.

These are very common fallacies that seem to make sense but don't necessarily hold up to scrutiny.

This also doesn't mean Kata isn't effective it just means the argument is dumb. That would be based on its merits as well.

And with all of this i will still make the case that Bunkai is where stuff becomes ineffective because it tends to work backwards.

 

[lklawson]

And with all of this i will still make the case that Bunkai is where stuff becomes ineffective because it tends to work backwards.

It's interesting that you mention that. Just a week or two ago or so I watched a Jesse Enkamp video where he argued much the same thing. Bunkai, according to him, isn't some sort of secret hidden technique which you have to guess the application of. It is (was?) a standard well-known technique which may have had varying applications as was appropriate for the circumstance.

Past the academic nature of the subject (just learning for the sake of learning something, outside of whether or not it is useful to me), I find the whole set of arguments surrounding the subject of Bunkai somewhere between "perplexing" and "amusing." It seems a silly thing to argue about. If it works for you, then use it. If not, don't. Why argue with someone else about it who holds a different concept of Bunkai?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Deleted member 39746]

To be honest shadow boxing is closer to free sparring with a imiginary person. kata (not paired) is fixed. I will always be dubious of kata and it seems like (and i think it is actually) a formalised method of "do it like this" that just stuck.



Also, for some reason it just bugs me when people apply things to things that dont exist in that area. Kata is not a english word so wont be present in english boxing, that means it as a concept is not called kata if its present. I dont go around saying i do Kihon and that for things, so i wish people would stop katafying things outside of JMA. Like am i doing engineering kata if i show you the movement on how to remove a component?

Addendum: my doubt is towards solo kata, its a supplimentory excercise, paired effectively exists everywhere. I also get citing something as X if thats the word you know it as, like who is going to use Mishin in england?

Addendum 2: I could probbly come up with several "am i doing kata if" examples. I have just thought of gun kata right now for if you dry draw and fire your pistol.

 

[lklawson]

To be honest shadow boxing is closer to free sparring with a imiginary person. kata (not paired) is fixed. I will always be dubious of kata and it seems like (and i think it is actually) a formalised method of "do it like this" that just stuck.



Also, for some reason it just bugs me when people apply things to things that dont exist in that area. Kata is not a english word so wont be present in english boxing, that means it as a concept is not called kata if its present. I dont go around saying i do Kihon and that for things, so i wish people would stop katafying things outside of JMA. Like am i doing engineering kata if i show you the movement on how to remove a component?

Addendum: my doubt is towards solo kata, its a supplimentory excercise, paired effectively exists everywhere. I also get citing something as X if thats the word you know it as, like who is going to use Mishin in england?

Addendum 2: I could probbly come up with several "am i doing kata if" examples. I have just thought of gun kata right now for if you dry draw and fire your pistol.

Well, yeah. Movement sets that seem similar to Kata exist everywhere and probably always have. The Figueyredo manuscript on Montante (Iberian "Two-Handed" Great Sword) springs instantly to mind. It has several sets of "simple" and "composed" (additional complexity) movements which look very like Kata and are apparently intended to be applied to certain specific situations.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Buka]

I have just thought of gun kata right now for if you dry draw and fire your pistol.

Gun Kata, cimematically speaking....

 

[Steve]

Gun Kata, cimematically speaking....

Pretty good video. I watched a lot of John Woo movies in the early 90s, and remember when Equilibrium came out, too.

 

[Buka]

Pretty good video. I watched a lot of John Woo movies in the early 90s, and remember when Equilibrium came out, too.

I really love movies, even some outrageous ones. If it's an action movie, especially ones featuring some sort of Martial whatever, I don't care if it's unrealistic, I watch to be entertained.

John Woo rocked. I was entertained.