Sexual Practices at Guantanamo

[Deuce]

One) No, it is not morally acceptable to stoop to the level of terrorists and sociopaths to stop them. The whole point for doing what we're doing is that we're the moral champions here fighting for freedom, liberty, and apple pies for all. Torturing prisoners of war doesn't accomplish this.

Is it morally acceptable to let American soldiers die because convincing a man that he has broken his religious values is unethical?

They're killing, beating, and torturing Americans, and you equate this with wearing a thong and rubbing red ink on someone's face? I wouldn't call this torture. Is yelling at someone in an iterrogation room until he breaks torture? This is a fairly standard technique that has been proven to work, and would be classified as torture under your definition.

Two) We do know the full story: torture doesn't work as an interrogation method. There have been numerous studies (not to mention past experience with the CIA) that can attest to this. The entire notion of torture being an effective means of interrogation is a pre-formed fantasy.

OK, I agree with you that torture dosen't work, but I don't think this interrogation tactic is torture. With all these studies done, don't you think the military would realize that this method is a waste of time if they considered it torture? Someone, somewhere must have thought that it might work.

I just think that the methods explained in the article are acceptable if they actually work. Where do we draw the line with what's acceptable when American lives are at stake?

Sheldon

 

[MisterMike]

We've hashed this out before. It just turns into throwing words around like "torture," "Hitler," "Vietnam," yadda, yadda, yadda...

Save your keystrokes...

 

[rmcrobertson]

We know exactly the nature of these..."interrogations." We know who ordered them. We know why.

Sorry that some of us object to torture, murder, and violations of international treaties, international law, the UCMJ, and the Constitution.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

We've hashed this out before. It just turns into throwing words around like "torture," "Hitler," "Vietnam," yadda, yadda, yadda...

Save your keystrokes...

I don't think anyone's throwing words around without having some meaning behind it.

If our nation is participating in torture, that is a serious problem.

 

[Deuce]

Sorry that some of us object to torture, murder, and violations of international treaties, international law, the UCMJ, and the Constitution.

I object to these things as well, and fail to see the relevance of this statement to the topic at hand.

How can the implementation of using promiscuous female interrogators fall under any of the categories you listed? It's a more non-violent method than screeming your head off and throwing chairs accross the room in order to get information. Should the "good cop, bad cop" tactic be used? After all, getting yelled and sweared at may hurt the feelings of the prisoner. We can't have that.

 

[Tgace]

Thats because the people screaming "torture!" loudest cant declare what exactly they consider torture...name what is and isnt acceptable as a technique. Me? Physical abuse: Bad. Things like using lights, isolation etc. to enhance psychological manipulation: OK.

Of course that necessitates making a stand which is in rare supply these days...

 

[Colin_Linz]

Thats because the people screaming "torture!" loudest cant declare what exactly they consider torture...name what is and isnt acceptable as a technique. Me? Physical abuse: Bad. Things like using lights, isolation etc. to enhance psychological manipulation: OK.

Of course that necessitates making a stand which is in rare supply these days...

It is pretty difficult to name techniques, in the end it doesn’t matter. What matters are the international agreements we have all signed, and our own laws. From a personal level I wouldn’t consider using anything that was outside my moral paradigm, this is probably not answering your question though.

We are having a war on terror. This is what we are trying to win, and this goal should not be forgotten in the mallee. There are going to be casualties, it is normal in war. We accept that when we go into battle some will fall. We do this because it is necessary to complete the goal. What we need to consider is that battle fronts can occur in a number of areas, they are not always on the ground with our troops. We need to consider the hearts and minds of others. Most of these terrorists are recruited because their beliefs and living circumstances have been exploited by people like Osama. If we are going to succeed we need to demonstrate clearly that we are not just talking empty words when we claim to respect other races and their cultures, and that the individual’s rights hold value within our societies, and our justice systems are fair and respected by our leaders. If we neglect this part of the war we will never achieve our goals, we may beat them back for a while, but they will regrow. We need to clearly demonstrate that we have a better method of managing people and societies. One that will welcome them and not seek to subvert their beliefs, we need to clearly demonstrate that it not an us or them situation, and that we care about them and respect their individual cultures.

On the issue of the ink. My thoughts would be that it is not torture, but then I’m not a devout male Muslim, if I was it would probably effect me much more. What we need to think of is that they did not know it was ink. Movies are only pretend; this doesn’t stop people suffering clear adverse physical reactions to what they see. I doubt that the method will have any benefit over other more established methods. What we need to understand is the greater effect that this will have.

There are a great number of Muslims in the world that are not terrorists, why do we feel the need to isolate them and drive them from us. During Vietnam the Americans just threw stuff away. The enemy went through their rubbish and used what they could. They also had spotters during the air raids, they would spot the unexploded ordinance and following the bombing would go out and get the ordinance for their own use. We are doing the exact same thing now, but with people. What are the terrorists best weapon? Do you think the way we treat these prisoners will only effect them, or could there be a cascading effect? We need to be very clear about what our actions communicate. There are many people in the Middle East that don’t support these terrorists, it could be a good idea to try and keep their faith in us

 

[Tgace]

I just think that if we are going to be throwing around the term "torture" we should all be on the same page of what that means. One persons version seems far different from anothers here. General statements about personal moral paradigms dont clear the haze.....

 

[rmcrobertson]

Could ya maybe agree that if you a) grab people off the street and hold them incommunicado for years, b) beat them to get information, c) sodomize them with a stick to get information, d) beat some of them to death to get information, e) do things like strap them down, put a towel over their head and soak the towel with water to get information, f) run fake firing squads to get information--why then, it's probably, you know, TORTURE?

 

[Tgace]

The international agreements leave a lot of room on the issue anyways...show any pact that names specific interrogation techniques. Ill bet most of them are couched in general terminology. Look at the US field manual I posted. Theres a lot of "wiggle room". Granted the abuses at Abu Graib were way beyond those parameters. Im just wondering if people are expecting military intel. guys to just be asking POWs "please tell me what you know...no?...Ok then ask for me if you change your mind...next!"

At what point does psychological manipulation become torture? Torure to me involves physical injury, substantial pain (not just light discomfort), anything that permanentaly harms somebodies physical/psychological well being.

 

[shane23ss]

The international agreements leave a lot of room on the issue anyways...show any pact that names specific interrogation techniques. Ill bet most of them are couched in general terminology. Look at the US field manual I posted. Theres a lot of "wiggle room". Granted the abuses at Abu Graib were way beyond those parameters. Im just wondering if people are expecting military intel. guys to just be asking POWs "please tell me what you know...no?...Ok then ask for me if you change your mind...next!"

At what point does psychological manipulation become torture? Torure to me involves physical injury, substantial pain (not just light discomfort), anything that permanentaly harms somebodies physical/psychological well being.

I would have to agree with this point.

 

[Tgace]

Yes Robert I would say thats torture and wrong....

What about the psychological manipulation stuff Ive been mentioning? Is that torture?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Quite possibly. Probably, though, some of it falls into the area of what I'd call, "coercion--" it may be wrong, it may violate law and treaty, but it may not be torture.

A question I asked early on this thread came down to this: do we really want soldiers, and later civilians, who are accustomed to the sort of sexual manipulation described? especially when they're closely associated with soldiers, and units, that are cayying out obvious torture?

 

[Colin_Linz]

Policy can be interoperated in ways that defy their intent. What should be understood is that this interpretation communicates something about your values and how we really think. This is why we should remain true to our stated beliefs and values.

The issue of the ink as torture on its own is a red herring. We should be thinking how does this effect the war. Clearly it erodes the support for the war at home and can provide the terrorists with greater ammunition to use against us, while providing little use.

My personal thoughts regarding using ink to simulate menstrual blood, to put on detainees is one of disgust. It is not something I would like to think I could do. I believe that the same results could be obtained with normal interrogation techniques. I respect people’s religious beliefs even though I have non myself. I don’t know if it is torture or not, just that I don’t like it, and on a practical level think it is counter productive to what we need to do to win this war on terror.

 

[Andrew Green]

Is it morally acceptable to let American soldiers die because convincing a man that he has broken his religious values is unethical?

Is it morally acceptable to believe that American lives are more valuable then people of other countries?

What is the ratio? How many non-american lives are worth one American life?

 

[Deuce]

Is it morally acceptable to believe that American lives are more valuable then people of other countries?

What is the ratio? How many non-american lives are worth one American life?

So you would let an American die instead of allowing religious beliefs being used in an interrogation?

 

[Colin_Linz]

So you would let an American die instead of allowing religious beliefs being used in an interrogation?

It is just as true to say that by showing disdain for their beliefs you are causing more American soldiers to die. Given the choice I would follow my values.

 

[Tgace]

http://usinfo.state.gov/mena/Archive/2004/May/17-485967.html

US dept. of state on military interrogation...worth the read if you want to know the stated policy on this issue.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I have no question that you're a lot safer, these days, with the UCMJ and with most all of the military than you are with with Bush's cowboys.

I also recommend reading this report from Human Rights Watch--note in particular that we have members of our government unilaterally announcing that certain people have no rights whatsoever.

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/usa0604/

 

[Tgace]

A problem I have with this discussion topic is the issue of POW's in the "War on Terrorism". Traditionally, POW's were held till the cessation of hostilities and then repatriated to their homelands. Where that point is in this "War" is uncertain. Where/when do we release these POW's?