Service dog not allowed?

[Bob Hubbard]

Service dog not allowed? 2:38
A Florida veteran says he and his service dog are having trouble riding Miami buses. WSVN reports.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2009/10/21/fl.service.dog.trouble.wsvn.html

 

[girlbug2]

Pearl resembles a bull dog or a pit bull more than a boxer. I'd bet that's why the bus drivers give the guy such a hard time. OTOH, retrievers seldom make people uneasy. Perhaps retrievers and other "friendly-looking" breeds should be used more for service dogs.

 

[Stac3y]

Pearl resembles a bull dog or a pit bull more than a boxer. I'd bet that's why the bus drivers give the guy such a hard time. OTOH, retrievers seldom make people uneasy. Perhaps retrievers and other "friendly-looking" breeds should be used more for service dogs.

They are. Most service dogs are retrievers or German Shepherds. At least, most guide dogs are. I don't know about other types of service dogs.

 

[Stac3y]

If you watched to the end of the clip, you'll see that the bus company has apologized and said the dog should have been allowed on the bus. I'm very glad they did--at least they aren't trying to justify their driver's incorrect behavior. I was not able to see the first part of the clip (!@#$%*&! work computer!), but when I came in, the man said he was not willing to disclose the nature of his disability to the bus driver (not that he should have to). Did he say if he produced his service dog card? I'm just curious.

I have seen a restaurant employee attempt to eject a person who had a service dog that was not a dog guide; fortunately, others intervened.

 

[celtic_crippler]

If you watched to the end of the clip, you'll see that the bus company has apologized and said the dog should have been allowed on the bus. I'm very glad they did--at least they aren't trying to justify their driver's incorrect behavior. I was not able to see the first part of the clip (!@#$%*&! work computer!), but when I came in, the man said he was not willing to disclose the nature of his disability to the bus driver (not that he should have to). Did he say if he produced his service dog card? I'm just curious.

I have seen a restaurant employee attempt to eject a person who had a service dog that was not a dog guide; fortunately, others intervened.

Yes, he does have a service card.

It seems that's not always enough. Let's hope the bus drivers of Miami-Dade recieve more training so they'll quit screwing up.

 

[Flea]

Speaking as a former service dog handler myself, I'm thrilled with how CNN covered the story. My dog and I had so many nightmare confrontations with businesses that eventually the stress of using a service dog made me sicker than any benefit I got from him. Bus drivers were by far the worst, and I got several of them written up for their unprofessionalism. Ultimately I stopped riding the bus altogether.

The ADA has no restrictions on dog breed for service. I've seen people use everything from teacup chihuahuas to mastiffs, including pitties. For that matter, there's no restriction on species either. People also use cats, and I've even seen some service birds. It's not about the breed, but about the human's unique needs, the animals' capacity to meet those needs, and their working relationship.

One thing that people don't understand is that the ADA doesn't require service animals to be marked in any way. A requirement like that could impinge on the animal's job. So a hot pink vest could be a little confusing to someone who's never seen a service dog before. Even so, it's the driver's responsibility to know the law, and ultimately the bus system's responsibility to train everyone properly. Likewise, federal law doesn't require identification cards. Service animal training programs produce their own on a voluntary basis, but the cards hold no legal authority. As such, drivers can't legally demand to see one, and they especially can't use it as grounds for granting or denying access to services.

Thanks for posting that video Bob. It's great to see some solid public education on disability rights and service animals. You just officially made my day. :supcool:

 

[MA-Caver]

Where I work (tourist attraction) dogs are not allowed in the building UNLESS they are verified service dogs. Now-a-days these animals (by whatever breed they may be and whatever service they're providing) usually have a doggy vest or a large identifiable patch on their harness or whatever. The patch identifies them as a viable working service dog for whatever disability the individual has. Yes by law they do not have to disclose their disability but they are expected (required :idunno: ) to have identification for the dog. We've allowed dogs down in the cave because of that reason. We know that by law we have to provide reasonable access for any person wanting to visit the cave and we do so. The only thing we bar access to are wheelchairs (the passageways and staircases are far too narrow to allow wheelchairs, and walkers.
Seeing eye dogs are allowed down in the cave with a special request that the dogs be allowed to empty themselves prior to going in... just like we ask people to.
Some deaf people have service dogs but I for one cannot see any USE for the service dogs outside the home. So to me it's more of an indulgence on the service dog owner's part that allows them to "take advantage of the access law"... of course I may not see how a "hearing dog" be useful outside the deaf person's home.

Pit bulls are typically NOT considered as guide dogs... Retrievers, Labs, and Shepards have the traditional icon of the seeing-eye-dog. But then with the negative rep that Pits have it's easy to see how someone may say no-way Jose.

 

[Flea]

Where I work (tourist attraction) dogs are not allowed in the building UNLESS they are verified service dogs. Now-a-days these animals (by whatever breed they may be and whatever service they're providing) usually have a doggy vest or a large identifiable patch on their harness or whatever. The patch identifies them as a viable working service dog for whatever disability the individual has. Yes by law they do not have to disclose their disability but they are expected (required :idunno: ) to have identification for the dog.

Not required by law. Your employer can try to require it, but any literate SD handler will take you to court if you bar access over the lack of an ID card.

Some deaf people have service dogs but I for one cannot see any USE for the service dogs outside the home. So to me it's more of an indulgence on the service dog owner's part that allows them to "take advantage of the access law"...

Which is exactly why the access laws are set up as they are. Every individual is unique, and every disabled individual has unique symptoms. Hearing assistance dogs can do a lot outside of the home. They can alert their handler to someone calling their name, to oncoming traffic, or smoke alarms to name a few things. How a person utilizes their SD is highly personal and unique.

One thing that a lot of people don't realize is that using a service animal is extremely time consuming and labor-intensive. Not only do you have to put up with idiots wandering up to you at random with the once-over and "so what's wrong with you?" but there are legal hassles like what the man in Miami has to deal with every day. Many handlers have to fight with ignorant landlords and employers too. Training is constant and very expensive. And for those who get an animal through an established program, they have to live with the program's scrutiny over how their property is cared for - you don't even get to keep your beloved companion once he retires. Using a service animal isn't simply a matter of faking being sick so you can take your dog to McDonald's. It's a major commitment, a full-blown lifestyle, and not one for the faint of heart. Believe me, any service dog handler in the world would give anything not to need the dog. Nobody wants to be incapacitated.

 

[MA-Caver]

Originally Posted by MA-Caver
Yes by law they do not have to disclose their disability but they are expected (required :idunno: ) to have identification for the dog.

Not required by law. Your employer can try to require it, but any literate SD handler will take you to court if you bar access over the lack of an ID card.

I should've clarified that I meant it is by law they do not HAVE to disclose...
but (not by law... but still expected) to at least identification for the dog... it's common sense to have visible ID for the dog, because ANYONE can say "oh my mutt is a service dog" and they're really not... I've known people talk about doing that... it's wrong and woe be unto them if they're caught. ... likely a hefty fine.

 

[Tez3]

I watched a programme here about a profoundly deaf lady who had become totally isolated as going out was a nightmare for her. When out shopping she said people had treated her as an idiot or a lunatic (her words) because being unable to hear what they were saying she couldn't understand them and if she tried to tell them her speech was such that it was very difficult to understand.
She was persuaded to take a 'hearing' dog which initially was to help her with door bells, fire alarms and that sort of thing, she was also persuaded to go out with him wearing his little jacket. She became another person and so much happier as now when she's out people pay attention to her as they now understand she's deaf and treat her as a person not a nuisance. She was quoted as saying that the little dog had changed everything for her, giving her confidence, companionship and the chance to lead a full and happy life.The little dog himself was a star, friendly but protective, a real help inside and outdoors.

 

[Carol]

I've heard of cases where dogs and/or cats have learned to detect when their owner is about to have a seizure, and they are able to signal their owner in some way before the seizure actually happens so the person has a moment to get out of harms way (out of the tub, away from the furniture, etc). I thought that was amazing. Its astounding what some animals can detect.

 

[Jade Tigress]

I've heard of cases where dogs and/or cats have learned to detect when their owner is about to have a seizure, and they are able to signal their owner in some way before the seizure actually happens so the person has a moment to get out of harms way (out of the tub, away from the furniture, etc). I thought that was amazing. Its astounding what some animals can detect.

I was about to mention the seizure alert dogs too. Epilepsy is another disability that is undetectable by appearance. It is not easy to get a service dog. There are many qualifications that need to be met before being granted one.

If someone has a service dog, or animal, no matter what type or breed, rest assured they need it, and the animal is specifically trained to meet the needs of that person.

How dogs detect an oncoming seizure in a human is a mystery. Some trainers and researchers think they detect subtle changes in human behavior or scent before an episode occurs. There are no scientific studies, however, to prove these theories. Trainers also believe the behavior is not breed, age or gender specific in dogs.

Seizure alert dogs are born with this remarkable ability. This sets them apart from other types of service animals.
"I can train a dog to sit, lay down and fetch," says Sharon Hermansen of Canine Seizure Assist Society of North Carolina, "but I can't teach a dog to alert."

Article.

The man in the articles dog for example may not make a good seeing eye dog, or seizure alert dog, but he knows how to detect the anxiety level of his owner and work accordingly to aleve it.

 

[Flea]

Epilepsy is another disability that is undetectable by appearance. It is not easy to get a service dog. There are many qualifications that need to be met before being granted one.

Fortunately that's changing. As people think creatively and see the potential for animals to give assistance, we're now seeing diabetes alert, seizure alert, mobility assistance, and psychiatric assistance. No doubt that list will expand as time goes on. The ADA is drafted carefully so as not to be exclusive about what disabilities can be served by assistance animals. The people composing the law left it open to future new "technologies," as any law should be.

Another great thing about the law is that it doesn't stipulate that service animals come from an established program, which also helped open the door to these new uses. Imagine what would happen if someone went to a guide dog school and asked them to train a dog for diabetes alert? Absolutely nothing, of course. These innovations have come as people took the initiative and trained their own animals, and training schools have brought up the rear after seeing the results.

As you can see, I'm pretty passionate about this issue. I'm grateful it came up, so I have an excuse to be all like :soapbox:. Hee hee.

 

[girlbug2]

Another great thing about the law is that it doesn't stipulate that service animals come from an established program, which also helped open the door to these new uses. Imagine what would happen if someone went to a guide dog school and asked them to train a dog for diabetes alert? Absolutely nothing, of course. These innovations have come as people took the initiative and trained their own animals, and training schools have brought up the rear after seeing the results.

Please help me to understand--absolutely anybody with any disability can train their own service animal? And, this animal must legally be allowed to accompany their person anywhere in public, but the person is under no obligation to furnish verification that the animal is officially a service animal, nor to put a vest or other identifying gear on their dog?

So anybody could potentially take their dog, cat, etc. with them into the grocery store or ball park if they merely say it's their service animal?

What is to keep the general public from abusing this, seriously...

Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly support the people who genuinely need service animals. I just want to see some kind of way to set apart the legit service animals from people who are looking to take advantage of the laws so they can bring Fluffykins with them everywhere.

 

[MJS]

The bus driver messed up big time. Like its already been said, the dog doesn't have to be what we would commonly think a service dog to be, ie: German Sheperd, Lab, etc. The dogs can also have other functions aside from helping someone visually impared. Carol mentioned animals that detect when a seizure may be coming on.

I would also think, much like if you had a handicapped placard or plate on your car, that anyone with a service dog would also have to carry a card or some paperwork...something that was proof that it wasn't any dog and their owner.

 

[Flea]

Please help me to understand--absolutely anybody with any disability can train their own service animal? And, this animal must legally be allowed to accompany their person anywhere in public, but the person is under no obligation to furnish verification that the animal is officially a service animal, nor to put a vest or other identifying gear on their dog?

That's correct. Service animals are marked as a courtesy. Of course, the access challenges one gets with an unmarked animal come so fast and thick that it becomes self-reinforcing very quickly.

So anybody could potentially take their dog, cat, etc. with them into the grocery store or ball park if they merely say it's their service animal?

Sadly, yes. Of course, a genuine handler knows the law and what to say when challenged. That's one way to tell the difference.

What is to keep the general public from abusing this, seriously...

A few things. First, a gatekeeper can legally ask a few questions - do you have a disability, and does your animal perform tasks to mitigate your disability. The handler can volunteer more information if they want.

More than that, a business has the right to bar access under certain conditions. First, the animal must pose a credible risk to the fundamental operations of the establishment. You can bring a SD to McDonald's, for instance, but not into surgery because that's a sterile environment. (Hospitals in general are okay on a case-by-case basis.) Houses of worship can bar access with no questions asked.

Above all, any establishment can eject a service animal if it behaves inappropriately. That means crapping on the floor, snarling, and so forth. It's a grey area, because certain behaviors can also fall under the category of doing its job. Alert animals may be trained to bark. My dog alerted me in typical border collie fashion by jumping up and tagging my elbow; I had a couple places try to kick us out for this "aggression." And sadly, a lot of business owners simply don't like dogs and will make up excuses to block them. Refer back to point #1 about real handlers knowing their rights.

Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly support the people who genuinely need service animals. I just want to see some kind of way to set apart the legit service animals from people who are looking to take advantage of the laws so they can bring Fluffykins with them everywhere.

As a former handler, believe me, I feel the same way. Fakers with badly behaved animals make life much harder for those of us who sincerely need the assistance. As it is, the laws are stacked in the handlers' favor. But as with any law there are plenty of ways to get around it. And of course when you try to involve law enforcement they usually don't know anything about the ADA either. *sigh*

 

[Stac3y]

I've heard of cases where dogs and/or cats have learned to detect when their owner is about to have a seizure, and they are able to signal their owner in some way before the seizure actually happens so the person has a moment to get out of harms way (out of the tub, away from the furniture, etc). I thought that was amazing. Its astounding what some animals can detect.

There are trained "seizure dogs" also. BTW, Flea mentioned that SD users don't get to keep their dogs once they retire; although that may be true where you are, Flea, it's not true of the primary organization that provides dog guides for the blind here in Central Texas. They consider the relationship between dog and user to be permanent--the bond being as important to the dog as to the human. I know a blind couple who have one retired dog guide living at home with them and their 2 current guides.

 

[Tez3]

If you go to France you will find everyone's dogs are allowed in everywhere! sitting in a restrauant can be quite funny when at the next table a little dog is sat on his chair eating his dinner, very nicely I might add, actually better behaved than most British kids.French kids behave beautiful too when out dining with adults, it's a pleasure and I can't say I mind the dogs. Dogs accompany their owners on push bikes, scooters and motorbikes, around the supermarkets and on the beach. They do seem very well trained and don't seem to disgrace themselves.

 

[Flea]

Stac3y, that's good to know. It's really the way it should be. I've heard of organizations insisting that recipients give up all their other pets before they'll place a SD in a home (which doesn't bode well for the SD if the recipient is that cavalier about the human/animal bond.) I also came across a story about a program which confiscated a dog from a handler because it was two pounds overweight! Both of which have convinced me for life that owner-trained is the way to go.

It warms my heart a little to see that some programs are more reasonable in their policies. Since my dog was owner-trained, of course, there is no question who he belongs to in his retirement. :supcool:

Oh, and Tez? I think dogs should have more leeway in public too. I think we'd have much better trained dogs in general, since people would have a powerful incentive to teach their dogs better behavior. Ah, maybe someday.

 

[Ping898]

Service dogs are being used for more and more disabilities these days, including autism - though not all schools are welcoming service dogs for them either http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...29B674D9B667FF2886257642007F6106?OpenDocument

I was in the airport once where a deaf woman had a service dog, a Boston Terrier. I went over and asked if I could pet him, luckily she could read lips and consented. She then handed me a card she had done up and laminated that said the dog's name, why she had him (cause she was deaf and he was her servic dog), and a few other details.

I met someone on a flight once who trained service dogs, he was on his 10th when I met him, and he said he always knew how cute the dogs were based upon how many free first class upgrades he'd get on his flights.