Systema - “Let Every Breath ”

[Q-Man]

Xue Sheng,

I’m sorry if my comments made you feel bad about your question regarding any connection between systema and the ROC. I was just referencing my experiences and what I saw as a divide between what I was told and what I saw and heard.

Furtry and NYCRonin,

It was a pleasure and I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.


Brian,

Does that exclamation point indicate something more you’d like to say or are you just really happy to welcome me to MT and the CMA/WC forums?

 

[Brian King]

Q-Man wrote

“Brian,

Does that exclamation point indicate something more you’d like to say or are you just really happy to welcome me to MT and the CMA/WC forums?”

Thanks Q-Man,
You commit made me look up exclamation point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclamation_point
An exclamation mark or exclamation point is a punctuation mark: ! It is usually used after an interjection or exclamation to indicate strong feeling, and generally marks the end of a sentence. A sentence ending in an exclamation mark is either an actual exclamation ("Wow!", "Boo!"), a command ("Stop!"), or is intended to be astonishing in some way ("They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!").

I have to admit yet again to my poor writing abililties and also admit that the exclamation mark should not have been used. A simple period would have been better. I am grateful for all the different sub forums here and enjoy reading many of the posts but you are right it is not astonishing, nor is my gratefulness really a strong feeling. As far as being really happy well yes that must be it my friend. This weekend especially has seen me in a really good mood and feeling the joy of the world. Not my usual grumpy self at all LOL. Enjoy it while it is here. I would edit and exchange the offending exclamation mark for a period but editing seems not to be allowed. Forgive me, and please no offense was ment. Please continue to feel free pointing out any misspellings or poor punctuation in any of my postings. Learning to write better is a bit of a pet project of mine right now and I appreciate the corrections. I have a thick skin and have learned over the years not to sweat the small stuff or to get easily offended. Again Welcome to Martial Talk and I do look forward to reading your and others contributions to the discussions. Have a Happy and Blessed Easter.


Brian King

 

[Q-Man]

I’m definitely not the guy to point out misspellings or improper punctuation, something or other about my own glass house. It’s just difficult to be certain you understand what someone means through this form of communication. But I’ve seen some people be real sticklers for perfect spelling, or other grammatical issues and sometimes it seems to be more of a verbal smoke screen or tactic to argue over trivialities rather than talking about the subject at hand. None the less, Brian I think we’d all be better off if we followed your lead and continued to try and improve our writing styles. Happy Holidays to all! (And yes I did mean to use the exclamation point here)

 

[Xue Sheng]

I I would also be interested in hearing about the similarities and synergies he discovers with-in the CMA traditions and practices.

The breathing in Systema is, from what I read inhale through the nose exhale through the mouth, this is done because it is apparently easier to relax the breathing that way. So far I have not found this to be true, but it could be because of my qi gong training. But I am sticking with the systema breathing during the exercises in the book (sit-ups, push-ups, knee bends, leg raises, etc) and it does seem to make the exercise feel VERY different with less focus on muscular exertion and more on breathing. I am finding it is easier to do these exercises in this way.

As to the actual breathing (to simplify so I do not have to type a book of my own here), qi gong emphasizes breathing in and out with the nose and it is breathing that is trying to use the entire lung capacity (belly breathing) which can in the beginning be a bit stressful because you are not use to it. The goal is to soften and extend the breath, building to a longer inhale and longer exhale that is not so much more air but breathing more slowly and more relaxed.

The ultimate goal is the same.... breathe and relax while doing it. But in most Qigong exercises there is a definite pattern to the breathing, arms up inhale arms down exhale kind of thing. And in most martial arts I have done there is the same idea about breathing certain moves requires certain types of breathing. However as I mentioned my Taiji is basically looking at breathing as "yes you should" this means that it will adjust to what it should be as the postures adjust and get better. And my Xingyi teacher also recently emphasized NOT locking breathing to application but yet there is still a breathing pattern for the form that is used to enhance Qi, unify the body which then produces greater power in attack (Xingyi is big on attack - Xingyi is one of the few MA styles that uses attack as defense)

I have been trying the systema breathing while walking as the book suggests and I have found 3 things. 1 if I can follow it for an entire walk I generally feel pretty good, but currently it takes a lot of concentration to do that. 2 if while doing the systema breathing I loose concentration I can get winded very fast even in a simple walk. 3 if I do not use systema breathing a walk is simply a walk and I am not breathing as every second throughout that walk. It is rather interesting walking this way and I think I will continue doing this and try to continue with Systema's breathing while doing this. However I have not (in a very long time) done any walking with Qigong breathing and I think I will try that this week as well. However if memory serves to begin walking with qigong in mind it is a very slow walk at first.

I’m sorry if my comments made you feel bad about your question regarding any connection between systema and the ROC. I was just referencing my experiences and what I saw as a divide between what I was told and what I saw and heard.

No worries, I just try and avoid religious discussions if at all possible (no one ever wins and it always ends up and argument and generally a locked thread) and I have been in a few spirituality in the martial arts discussions here on MT and my stance is always that it is intrinsic and that if you want spirituality go to church not to an MA class. There is a lot more to how I feel about this but I really REALLY do not want to get into it here, been there done that and this post is not really about that. I was just curios about what appeared to be a rather overt connection to Russian Orthodoxy. Nothing wrong with it, I am just not use to it.

EDIT: I see I made a slight error here that could cause a bit of confusion the statement

"my stance is always that it is intrinsic and that if you want spirituality go to church not to an MA class"

Should have been

"my stance is always that it is intrinsic and that if you want overt spirituality go to church not to an MA class"

 

[Furtry]

I have been trying the systema breathing while walking as the book suggests and I have found 3 things. 1 if I can follow it for an entire walk I generally feel pretty good, but currently it takes a lot of concentration to do that. 2 if while doing the systema breathing I loose concentration I can get winded very fast even in a simple walk. 3 if I do not use systema breathing a walk is simply a walk and I am not breathing as every second throughout that walk. It is rather interesting walking this way and I think I will continue doing this and try to continue with Systema's breathing while doing this. However I have not (in a very long time) done any walking with Qigong breathing and I think I will try that this week as well. However if memory serves to begin walking with qigong in mind it is a very slow walk at first.

To help you out a bit, this is something I picked up from Vlad, which I don't think is directly explained in the book and it has made a big difference for me. When inhaling, especially on the low counts (2-5) do not maximize the air intake. Make it comfortable. Same on exhale, do not empty to maximum, it should be comfortable. When you get up into the 15-20 counts then you should be breathing in and out fully. Your body needs the air also due to the load on the muscles.
A number of reasons for this, all are physiological; 1) Proper mixture of O2 and CO2. Breathing too deeply constantly will lead to hyperventilation.
2) Constant stress on the lungs leads to too much tension and you can't maintain it for long. Of course the more you do it the longer you will be able to maintain it, but that is to be built up gradually. And you can practice maximizing your breath but doing it constantly will have the effects you’re experiencing, as you described.
3) The reason you're breathing in through the nose and out through the mouth is to regulate/control heat exchange and dehydration. Breathing with the mouth increases the rate of dehydration. Breathing through the nose increases rate of body temperature rise. Combining the two to allow for balance.

A note of disclaimer; I am not a doctor or a sport performance researcher, just have 25+ years of constant training at various elite level sports. (I'm a bit of nut that way... if I would have taken up hockey I would have only did it to get to the NHL LOL!) I’ve recently started to train for a triathlon; I’m planning on being competitive.

 

[Xue Sheng]

To help you out a bit, this is something I picked up from Vlad, which I don't think is directly explained in the book and it has made a big difference for me. When inhaling, especially on the low counts (2-5) do not maximize the air intake. Make it comfortable. Same on exhale, do not empty to maximum, it should be comfortable. When you get up into the 15-20 counts then you should be breathing in and out fully. Your body needs the air also due to the load on the muscles.
A number of reasons for this, all are physiological; 1) Proper mixture of O2 and CO2. Breathing too deeply constantly will lead to hyperventilation.
2) Constant stress on the lungs leads to too much tension and you can't maintain it for long. Of course the more you do it the longer you will be able to maintain it, but that is to be built up gradually. And you can practice maximizing your breath but doing it constantly will have the effects you’re experiencing, as you described.
3) The reason you're breathing in through the nose and out through the mouth is to regulate/control heat exchange and dehydration. Breathing with the mouth increases the rate of dehydration. Breathing through the nose increases rate of body temperature rise. Combining the two to allow for balance.

A note of disclaimer; I am not a doctor or a sport performance researcher, just have 25+ years of constant training at various elite level sports. (I'm a bit of nut that way... if I would have taken up hockey I would have only did it to get to the NHL LOL!) I’ve recently started to train for a triathlon; I’m planning on being competitive.

Thank You, I will give it a try.

Could be, actually now that I think about it, that was probably what I was doing, breathing in to much and exhaling too much. That does not seem to be a problem with the exercises so much, just with the walking. The exercises, like I said, seem to be going well with Systema breathing. I think I need to give this a try in a Taiji and a Xingyi form and see what happens.

Does Vlad give seminars on just the breathing or is it all tied together in a Systema seminar?

 

[Xue Sheng]

This morning I was doing the Systema breathing in connection with my Xingyiquan standing training, Wuji and Santi. I realized that I am breathing in fine through my nose but I exhale way too much way to fast when exhaling with the mouth (if I go back to qigong breathing I do not have this problem) which of course leaves me gasping for air at some point. Which of course is exactly what Furtry suggested I don't do and he is of course right, but apparently I am doing it just the same. I will have to check this today when I walk but I am wondering if I am not doing the same thing when I apply Systema breathing to walking. I will try this with taiji tonight and tomorrow and see if this is also the case here.

Is this a common occurrence when one starts working with Systema breathing?

And one additional note and thanks:

I must say I am very impressed with all of the posters that have responded here for both the information I have been given and their restraint.

I have been in a few discussions on MT that went the religious spiritual route and no matter what the original poster said and regardless of moderators warning of thread lock the people arguing over spiritually would not stop, until the thread was locked.

Here I posted one thing about it and it stopped and I was able to get the post back on the track the I wanted it to go.

My thanks to all :asian:

 

[erich]

I realized that I am breathing in fine through my nose but I exhale way too much way to fast when exhaling with the mouth (if I go back to qigong breathing I do not have this problem) which of course leaves me gasping for air at some point. Which of course is exactly what Furtry suggested I don't do and he is of course right, but apparently I am doing it just the same. I will have to check this today when I walk but I am wondering if I am not doing the same thing when I apply Systema breathing to walking. I will try this with taiji tonight and tomorrow and see if this is also the case here.

Is this a common occurrence when one starts working with Systema breathing?

This is not uncommon when switching from nose exhalation. As you discovered the mouth offers a bigger aperture and allows the exhale to proceed more quickly and with less effort. While the nose naturally regulates the rate at which air escapes by virtue of being a smaller opening (especially if it has been broken several times as may be common among participants in this forum) it takes some additional training to learn to regulate the rate of exhale through the mouth.

 

[Furtry]

If you get the DVD (I'm not trying to sell you anything here) it gives a visual explanation of how to breath out through the mouth. The best way I can describe it is; treat it like a one way valve. Closed but allow air flow out, regulating volume by the tightness of your lips. Also, especially at first, make your breathing audible, this will help with control.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is not uncommon when switching from nose exhalation. As you discovered the mouth offers a bigger aperture and allows the exhale to proceed more quickly and with less effort. While the nose naturally regulates the rate at which air escapes by virtue of being a smaller opening (especially if it has been broken several times as may be common among participants in this forum) it takes some additional training to learn to regulate the rate of exhale through the mouth.

Nope, I have been lucky enough so far not to have broken my nose due to MA training, my ankle yes (twice from MA training), nose no. And I won't go into the sprains, tears, pulls and assorted other injuries I am sure we all have had already.

What you are saying makes sense, thanks

If you get the DVD (I'm not trying to sell you anything here) it gives a visual explanation of how to breath out through the mouth. The best way I can describe it is; treat it like a one way valve. Closed but allow air flow out, regulating volume by the tightness of your lips. Also, especially at first, make your breathing audible, this will help with control.

Actually I was seriously thinking about going home tonight and ordering the DVD and now I think I will definitely do that, Thanks.



I think I will go out for my lunch time walk now and see it I can regulate this a bit better.

 

[Xue Sheng]

On a much related Systema note:

I have been training with my Yang style Sifu for a little over 12 years and in those 12 years I have heard him tell people their form was “no good”, “needed work”, “getting better” “to fast”, Not low enough”, etc. But I have not in 12 years heard him tell anyone that their form was good.

I decided to see what effect Systema breathing had on my taiji last night, I did not make the audible exhale with the mouth, I just slowed it down and on occasion reverted to inhale and exhale with my nose, but for the most part I was concentrating on my breathing and tried, as the book suggested, getting oxygen to all parts of my body.

After I was done my Sifu walked over to me and told me my form was good and from him that is a big compliment. I really think I need to get into this Systema stuff a bit more, I did not order the DVD last night that goes with the book, I had not time, however I will be ordering it tonight.

I started just intrigued by the breathing and now I think I need to look into Systema a bit more.

Thanks for all the information :asian:
XS

 

[Furtry]

Correlation does not mean causation, but it is good to hear that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK now that I have the DVD I can see I need to back up, slow down and build foundation. Not to mention follow the program as presented in both the book and DVD and I can see why both are necessary.

I have done a lot of Qigong in my time and it is actually similar to Systema breathing, but I must emphasize similar and not the same.

I have been like a kid in a candy store with this and have jump right through all of the stuff I am suppose to do to build a foundation and gone RIGHT to the more advanced stuff, walking and running and of course applying it to my current styles. And it has not been a complete failure but it has not worked as it is described in the book and this is mainly because of my being impatient. And coming from CMA styles like Taiji and Xingyi and adding Sanda the fact I am impatient is pretty amazing to me.
You get nowhere in Internal styles like Taiji and Xingyi if you are impatient. Apparently I am more excited by Systema breath training than I realized.

Ahhh if it were only that easy, time to back up and build basics and work my way to the higher levels instead of assuming I can do it based on my previous training.

I am really beginning to enjoy this and I can see as I build on the basics that it will apply (actually it does apply) to Xingyi and Taiji and I wouldn’t doubt that it will blend very nicely with Sanda.

Does Vladimir Vasiliev have seminars in Toronto at other times of the year, or is it basically only in May?