Systema - “Let Every Breath ”

[Xue Sheng]

I just finished reading

“Let Every Breath…”
By Vladimir Vasiliev

I know little about Systema (ok other than it was Russian, I knew nothing about Systema), which is why I bought the book, I decided I wanted to know a little about Systema so I bought the book and I must say I was impressed with what I read. Being a CMA guy I have trained a lot of Qigong over the years I do see similarities and as well as some things I never considered that I am thinking about incorporating into my training.

But I have a couple of questions and I am sure I will have more later.

After reading the book I get the impression that these breathing exercises are very important to Systema, is this true?

Also just out of curiosity it would also appear that Systema has a link to the Russian Orthodox Church.

Is this connection evident when you are being taught Systema?

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

After reading the book I get the impression that these breathing exercises are very important to Systema, is this true?

Also just out of curiosity it would also appear that Systema has a link to the Russian Orthodox Church.

Is this connection evident when you are being taught Systema?

Yes the breathing exercises are very important to Systema. Proper breathing that is coordinated with body movement is a fundamental. Breathing is emphasised during all drills.

The make up of the student base in Systema represents many different religions. Anyone and everyone is welcome and the Orthodox religion is not pushed on anyone during training. While there is no doubt about Mikhail's and Vladimir's religious convictions I have not heard of anyone that felt uncomfortable with the training. There is probably someone out there that disagrees but frankly it has not been a big topic of concern.

Take care,

Mark J.

 

[Carol]

Is there a connection other than Mikhail's and Vladimir's religious convictions?

I'm largely curious because a friend is in the process of formally converting to one of the Orthodox sects, and has been telling me a lot of fascinating stories about the faith and its people.

 

[Q-Man]

While there is no doubt about Mikhail's and Vladimir's religious convictions I have not heard of anyone that felt uncomfortable with the training. There is probably someone out there that disagrees but frankly it has not been a big topic of concern.

Take care,

Mark J.

Unless your Catholic and you hear MR insult your faith. Then you might be a little put off. Or when you hear some systema practitioners say that you can't "get it" unless you convert to the Russian Orthidox Church.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have been in contact with and practiced a few times with systema practitioners and breathing has always been stressed but never has religion been brought up

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thanks.

The book made it sound as if breathing is very important and I am trying to incorporate some of it into my training.

As to the religion, I train CMA and no matter how hard you try there will be some part that is somehow related to Taoism or Buddhism but it is not overt. I was just curios since Russian orthodoxy was so overt in the book and I have not run into am MA before was quite as overt when it comes to religion.

Still it appears to be pretty impressive based on the book and the few videos I have recently seen.

Again thanks

 

[Furtry]

breathing exercises are very important to Systema, is this true?

Yes

Is this connection evident when you are being taught Systema?

No

Or when you hear some systema practitioners say that you can't "get it" unless you convert to the Russian Orthidox Church.

These same people wouldn't get it no matter what religion Systema had at its root. Faith not religion makes a difference, BUT not in your understanding of ANY Martial Art. It makes a difference in your understanding of why you've chosen martial arts.

 

[Xue Sheng]

These same people wouldn't get it no matter what religion Systema had at its root. Faith not religion makes a difference, BUT not in your understanding of ANY Martial Art. It makes a difference in your understanding of why you've chosen martial arts.

Good point

Thanks

 

[Xue Sheng]

Is there a connection other than Mikhail's and Vladimir's religious convictions?

I'm largely curious because a friend is in the process of formally converting to one of the Orthodox sects, and has been telling me a lot of fascinating stories about the faith and its people.

According to the interviews in the back of the book it would appear to be.

 

[Q-Man]

Yes

No

These same people wouldn't get it no matter what religion Systema had at its root. Faith not religion makes a difference, BUT not in your understanding of ANY Martial Art. It makes a difference in your understanding of why you've chosen martial arts.

I'd like to believe that was the opinion of the teachers in Systema. I could believe it is for some. But from what I heard MR say when he was in Toronto in 2003 insulting Catholics and those who follow the more well known faiths that originated in Asia I know it's not quite true. And MR is the head of the system. If just having A faith was considered enough by MR (and maybe VV) then why is this such a taboo subject in the RMA community? Why wouldn't MR just say it as simply as you did Mr. Furtry? Because it's not enough to him.

 

[Furtry]

Q-man,
The number of people practicing Systema that are NOT ROC is exponentialy greater than those who are. I am an agnostic pragmatic secular Jew, if I was forced to lable myself.

Here is a quote to the ROC conection, whic is not a taboo subject.

As the roots of the Russian Systema are in the Russian Orthodox Christian faith, the belief is that everything that happens to us, good or bad, has only one ultimate purpose. That is to create the best possible conditions for each person to understand himself. Proper training in the Russian Systema carries the same objective – to put every participant into the best possible setting for him to realize as much about himself as he is able to handle at any given moment.

 

[marlon]

Thanks.

The book made it sound as if breathing is very important and I am trying to incorporate some of it into my training.

As to the religion, I train CMA and no matter how hard you try there will be some part that is somehow related to Taoism or Buddhism but it is not overt. I was just curios since Russian orthodoxy was so overt in the book and I have not run into am MA before was quite as overt when it comes to religion.

Still it appears to be pretty impressive based on the book and the few videos I have recently seen.

Again thanks

xs
what aspects of breathing interested you from this bookÉ

Marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

xs
what aspects of breathing interested you from this bookÉ

Marlon

The pattern, or to be more correct the application of various breathing techniques on the same physical movement. As well as its application across all areas of ones life.

My Xingyi sifu said something just prior to me getting this book (it did not influence my purchase, it has already been ordered, I just had not received it yet). We were doing a simple drill in the application of piquan (he seems to like piquan) and after a few minutes he stopped the entire class and said do not always exhale on force and inhale on recoil. (We all were doing that.) He said BREATH naturally. His reason for this however was based on fighting, if you always exhale when you throw a punch and you are fighting someone that knows what they are doing they will attack you immediately after you exhale because they will know you cannot hit without exhaling.

Also my Taiji has no specific breathing pattern. As my sifu likes to repeat what his sifu always said when asked about Taiji and breathing “Yes you should.”

IN this book they talk about breathing as being very important, which is obviously is (don’t believe me, try not doing it ). Now my Qigong training says much of the same thing that is said in the Systema book about health, relaxation and fitness as it relates to proper breathing but it has generally had a set breathing pattern attached to set movements where Systema doesn’t really have that. There are VERY simple exercises in the book that I am now doing that help with NOT attaching set breat8ing to set movement. The idea is to always breathe and become aware of the times you do not breath and what caused that stop.

Do a push up, how do you breath?

Now start in the normal push up position with arms extended and exhale. Then start to inhale and let your breath lead you down, exhale and let your breath lead you up. Reverse that exhale down then inhale up. Then change it again exhale ½ way down then change to inhale once down exhale start up ½ way change to exhale. Just mess around with the way you breath as it is attached to movement, but always always breath. Same with walking inhale for 5 steps exhale for 5 steps or inhale for 5 steps hold for 3 steps ad then exhale for 5 steps. Or inhale 1 step and exhale one step. I am just intrigued by the simplicity of it and the absolute obviousness of it yet I had not noticed it. Just breath it is just about that simple.

This is an over simplification of what is in the book and I am not discussing other parts of it but this at least gives you the idea of where I am coming from with this.

As to the Russian Orthodox Christianity, that was just something I found of interest since it appears so overt as oppose to what I am used to in CMA.

 

[NYCRonin]

In my presently rare check in with favorite web sites - I found this thread.

I was the arguably the first native NY'er - and the truly first Brooklyn boy to be authorized to teach Systema - and a few of the previous posters are my personal friends. Furtry stated a relative 'pidgeon hole-ing' for readers - for me...I might be described as an agnostic - or athiest - for I kinda lean towards kammakura zenist concepts along with the Vendatta. Labels of definition are useful in their conveniece for explanation - but often do not do much more than f=give a small definition of the individual - nor their heart - nor their way of living, day by day.

I was authorized first by Vlad - and was 'teasted' by both Vv and MR - and in the company of the handful of Toronto attendees - the 'faiths' ran the gamut from athiest..to pagan - to Wiccans, Jewish and a number of 'oriental influenced' members. There was No question about the ROC as a basis for acceptance. In fact, back then - I was actively teaching Systema. I had some native Russian speakers who were my students with me. And there was quite abit of difference between the interperters words - and what my friends translated.

In 2001...I was a member of a cadre that went to study Systema under the best - in Moscow. And never did I couch my outlook on the concept of 'God'. And was still invited to walk into the handmade chapel on MR's land.
I have known many deeply religious people in 52 years of life - and I have often seen that they gain a form of order to their lives and their chosen faith. It is their way of life outlook - and I learend that any teacher that finds a efining faith in life - if they are sincere and really wish to share their 'life' with you - they are inclined to explain the 'why and how' of their art in their venacular - and it is often (for a true believer of any faith) spoken in their most comfortable terms. I have been into martial study, now; for almost 43 years. When the menu of arts were mostly Japanese...and the teachers were Japanese. And the early desire to explain the 'how and why' - came in Shinto terms. Sometimes in the Buddha words.
When I studied FMA - the H&W came in terms about their native faith, often. When I studied CMA - it cames in terms of Tao and other Chinese base of way of living as a 'good person'.

In more Western studies - such as Savate or wrestling or (basic) boxing - even then, sometimes a teachers faith showed up in class. A short google search of any religion - cross-referenced with any faith - will fill your reading screen. I am thankful that I learned as a teen, to look beyond a teachers adhearence to any chosen form of faith - and in doing so, I have gained much more about muself than if I shut out their words. Words - as they attempt to try to expalin why they' do what they can do'.
I have said this many times in my years on the web - in Systema discussions...NEVER did I feel any pressure to convert to the ROC, in order to win the 'secrets' or be any closer to the main teachers VV and MR. IF MR was so unaccepting of any other faith holders than the ROC devotees - then I must ask? Why did he invite me into his home? Why did I get a chance to meet his children - or get a kiss from his wife, Raisa? Why - on the far too rare meetings with VV or MR or their loved ones - why do their eyes reflect a certain happines of "an old friend is HERE"!
*****
Back when I studied Pa-Kua - we were 'required' to study breating patterns that were (to some degree) linked to a religious belief...but that whole oriental faith thing seems, opverall - to be much more acceptable to Western students of any M.Art than Western forms of faith. In a few studies of FMA - a rite of passage was getting TATOO'S of protective amulets to somehow prove ones worthiness to get insider status. Needless to say - I have no such tatoos. And those that did showed no more discernable skill in free form than any dedicated student who put in their time in training. BUT - then again...if you wish to become more like your chosen 'Master' - and decide you can nearer to the 'secrets' by converting to any faith or doing rituals or getting tatoo's of another culture than your own...and you are willing to drop what got you to live a good life...well, to each his own.
*****
Let me get to something else.
****

Mr. Sheng -
Many times, in my personal experience - the Systema breating patterns have certain goals for the student to learn - and then work with what you do naturally. In most of my experience - it has been to shed one of fear based physical tightness....and to brak habitual patterns we pick up, unavoidably; in life.

Hmmmm....let us look at the bech press - similar to the push up, in a way. Rememeber - the 'goal' of Systema is NOT to get your maximum press - but to connect to the actual movement. In conventional pressing = inahle on the down and exhale on the up...for the max press is the goal.

But if we contrast this to the early Karate I studied over 30 years ago - we always 'HIT' on the exhale and maybe kiaied in tandem. In time this becomes a VERY ingrained pattern, for many practitioners. Body becomes function - and as you train...you will most often react (to a lesser degree - owing for stress, suddeness and circumstances in training and life experience).
Taking as common ground for discussion here - Systema is not all that well suited for sporting - but seeks to prep one for sudden, dangerous conflict. Hence...you might be inhaling when the 'wild and unforseen' comes your way. And if you can only defend on an exhale - or hit that way - you totality of movement ins constrained. You succumb to an ingrained pattern of training and movement and experience - you might defend successfully on the 1/9 th of a combative beat...but the odds really are against that.
****
Break habitual patterns of what movement is for you - and breating is that also. Breathing is one of very few things we can do both conciously and unconciously - and as who studied comparitive barain neuroanatomy as University about 20+ years ago...and still attempts to keep up on the cutting edge - there is alot about learning how to work the breath...by doing so you can remain more cognitive and make better choices under stress (such as real combat) and under conditions of life threatening traumatic injury - the breath might be the only thing that keeps 'you' alive.
The first thing 'you' do in life - free and 'all on your own' - is worth investigating. Deeply.

****
Just a final story. Ever hear of a guy name of Mike Stone? A karate legend from the Norris days? The body guard of Elvis...who wound up - well - kinda stealing Elvis' first wife way from The King? I doubt many of you are old enough to remember him - but he was the BIG name in competition open Karate was all there was.

More than a decade ago, I attended a rather small seminar under his guidance. Only about 20 NYC folks there - for even then, his fame was relative to the young-uns.

A 3 hour seminar - and I expected a discourse on a multiplicity of techniques. In that 3 hours - he taught only one. The rear hand punch. Oh, yes - he would switch us from an orthodox lead to a southpaw - but only ONE punch. He knew absolute zero about any RMA - as I did not either - He would not have known Vasilieve from Vasilene. BUT - he did teach us relaxation...and letting the strike 'do itself at the right time'. And he also taught us what he claimed was a secret that helped him to become an undefeated icon of his day.

Here it is:
"Watch the opponent breath...and try not to let him see you breath. Throw the punch on an obvious inhale, and you will usually get the jump on him and get the punch in - hard and convincingly".

Numerous years later, I met Vald for the first time. And it was a convincer - for I threw every 'dependable' movement I knew at him - I even tried every dirty trick. And after being bounced relatively gently to the floor for about 15 minutes - I knew I wanted to learn what I could from him. And years later - I told him about Mike Stone and that seminar....and Vlad gave me that "Of course" kind of look.

And the same 'secret' can be found in Musashi's Book of Five Rings..depending on the translation your reading.
****
All the way around the block and back where I started.

It will take abit of consideration...but my friends mentioned above will totally 'get it'. Particularly the legendary WereMoose of Toronto and a Poo Bear. ('In Joke' - I could not resist).

Take the above for what you might find.....It really is OK by me. Just like the whole question of 'faith' has been by my ROC devoted teachers, in my one on one experience with them.

Out!

 

[Xue Sheng]

NYCRonin

Thank You :asian:

And I although I probably shouldn't admit it, I am old enough to remember Mike Stone

 

[Q-Man]

Furtry,

I’ve read your comments on a couple of different Russian martial art oriented forums for a few years now and do respect you opinion. I also believe that you really mean what you say. And while I’m sure there are way more systema enthusiasts who are not practicing members of the ROC then who are that does not mean that MR doesn’t dismiss and disrespect other faiths and imply that ROC is the way. I can respect someone for feeling like religion ’x’ is the right path but if your (MR) so enlightened why insult other faiths?




NYCRonin,
I’m sure that you have grown and continued to learn much, much more about RMA but didn’t you yourself write this question a few years ago on the RMA forum?

“I am wondering -- does the assembled here believe that the superlative skill of MR or VV is impossible to attain if one were an atheist or of a faith other than the ROC?”
On a thread entitled:
Are Systema skills and religious beliefs interdependent?

You had been an instructor in RMA for years already when you asked that question. If it definitely was not an issue then why was it asked? You were 40+ years old with over 30 years experience in the arts. You understood people and organizations. If it was absolutely not a issue then why ask the question? I believe you asked because it was/is an issue. Most concerning, to me when I read that thread years ago, was the angry responses I read by some “senior” systema instructors. I understood the question but not the responses. Again if it was not an issue to the existing community then why were some of the senior instructor’s responses so rude and heated?

 

[NYCRonin]

Good question!

Again, the supposed 'issue' relates to my previous experience - and having witnessed many who, in an effort to find some supposed secret - or attempting to become 'nearer my god to thee' - just jumped in the deep end of the pool.

Now, having written that - I have seen some become exposed to other faiths from the effect the faith has on the teacher, and been very happy for finding something that filled some void in their life. And they have been happy wiythit all. I am happy for them.

BUT - having been in the various arts for decades.....having witnessed those that got the protective tattoos or began to burn joss sticks to a multitude of divinities - and never find the 'magic powers' or skill set of their teachers, well - lets just say the question you quoted was meant for those that were wondering if any conversion was the key. Do not get me wrong - knowing the language of any teahers faith will help to understand the 'how and why' of what they adhere to. Just like understanding any dialect abit will help you understand any speaker trying to express from their heart.

As far as the responses of my other Systema instructors that might have been read as rude and heated goes....even the most critical are still my friends. I simply accept them as the humans they are - and they do so with me. The years since that question was posted - have pretty much proven that, to me.

Vlad and I have very different views on the whole subject of faith. But, his eyes still light up and that smile explodes on his face when we have that rare chance to cross paths. His wife still hugs me....and his daughters (last time I saw them) - like to see me do sleight of hand tricks. Furtry and JellyMan have no problem with my personal choices...and neither have I ever felt that MR did either.

In fact, the most hateful discourse on ALL forms of faith I ever heard from a teacher - came from a very well known teacher of a different art. He shall remain nameless in this post. He was an atheist. And when he suddenly went into a rant because a student muttered "Oh, my god" after witnessing a student take a pretty ruff fall - his face turned crimson...and spittle came from his lips as he denounced all forms of faith.

Religion...like politics = always a hot and touchy subject.
Human nature.

Unavoidable...particularly when anyone makes it an issue.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well at this point to be honest I am sorry I asked about Russian Orthodoxy in relation to Systema at all. I was just curious, based on my CMA background, and not looking for a religious discussion as to the individual beliefs of its founder and it’s head instructor in North America. Religious discussions generally degrade in to arguments and no one actually wins. Which is something else I have always found interesting since religions claim to be peaceful and forgiving.

I am much more interested in its views on breathing as it applies to Systema and life itself, which is based in my Qigong background.

Thank you for the responses I have learned a lot here
:asian:

 

[Furtry]

Furtry,

I’ve read your comments on a couple of different Russian martial art oriented forums for a few years now and do respect you opinion. I also believe that you really mean what you say. And while I’m sure there are way more systema enthusiasts who are not practicing members of the ROC then who are that does not mean that MR doesn’t dismiss and disrespect other faiths and imply that ROC is the way. I can respect someone for feeling like religion ’x’ is the right path but if your (MR) so enlightened why insult other faiths?

I am not going to answer for MR, nor am I going to try and justify anything he may have said as it was he who said it not I.

I have been party to some of those comments, and my take on it is this. If I cared I would have reacted or acted on it. I don't so I will not. His comments do not effect me nor my abilities. His views also, as Rob said, do not affect our relationship. And lastly, he shares his knowledge with all equally and freely. An example of that, after that same discussion, giving me a 3 hour private lesson.

As for religious views, (this is not mine) except for Judaism, all try to convert the dis/unbelivers. The belief is that they are doing you good. They are saving your soul. I am not suggesting that is what MR was/is doing, it is simple dogma umong the majority of religions (a subject I am not an expert of.)

 

[Brian King]

Xue Sheng wrote

“Well at this point to be honest I am sorry I asked about Russian Orthodoxy in relation to Systema at all. I was just curious, based on my CMA background, and not looking for a religious discussion as to the individual beliefs of its founder and it’s head instructor in North America.”

Religious discussions rarely have productive legs when carried in public and many will wisely walk a mile or more to avoid the public conflict and instead seek the knowledge in person. I have had many productive discussions about faith and religion/religions and many other personal issues and questions and I appreciate the way that Systema instructors will voice their personal opinions honestly and freely when asked a question or questions in person. Much like the contact from an honest strike, sometimes the person asking the question risks getting his/her/their feelings hurt but that is often the cost of seeking. Sometimes we will not understand the answer with-in our limited frame of references and experiences. If our psyche is not strong enough to ask additional questions or to seek additional clarifications or if we refuse to hear the answer as not the answer we were seeking the question may have been better left unasked. There are no Taboo questions in Systema that I know of, but there is limited time and energy that most are willing to spend in useless public debate and argument.

I read this thread and was interested in the questions that XS has and hoping that he feels free in posting any additional questions and discoveries as he explores the way that we approach breathing and living with training. I also understand that it is the exploration that is interesting and that seeking the questions and answers by trail and error while training often yields the more positive results than asking questions on a public forum. With this in mind I am more interested in hearing his findings and self discoveries (such as one of the above posts that he made in reply to Marlon’s question) while on this journey than any questions for questions sake and appreciate the delay in asking questions whilst he explores. I would also be interested in hearing about the similarities and synergies he discovers with-in the CMA traditions and practices.

Q-Man
Welcome to Martial talk sir. I want to take a moment to welcome you to martial talk forums and to point out that there is also a whole forum dedicated to CMA and even one specifically to your art of choice of Wing Chun! Also there is a section called Meet and greet which allows people to introduce themselves and to get used to the flow of this forum. I am looking forward to reading your contributions.

Brian King