Self Study Strategy & Resources

[jks9199]

Argus, there are a very tiny number of people who have the combination of intellectual and athletic ability to successfully learn a martial art without direct instruction. It's not merely a matter of effort or discipline -- it's a balance of athletic ability (coordination, proprioreception, kinesic linking and more) as well as the ability to understand the written material and translate it successfully. Consider that my teacher literally spent months telling me "tighten your forearm, like this..." followed by "no, that's not it, like this..." and we weren't fighting the written word. Let me use your own analogy of learning a language. You claim a reasonable level of fluency in Japanese, and I suspect that you can probably read it (probably in one of the various romanizations) pretty well, and understand it when spoken, especially by people like newscasters or voice-over narrators -- but I suspect that there are many nuances of pronunciation and even spoken sentence construction that would make someone who learned it more interactively almost laugh. I still respect your achievement -- but I doubt it's comparable to even a Rosetta Stone type learning process. Or, if it is, it's probably taken you much longer than a truly interactive method would have.

I've got around 25 years of training in my martial art. I'm currently working on a form, and I'm using notes given me by the person who taught me. But they aren't my notes, and I hit a major snag with them... I'm not sure what he means by things as I read them.

Rather than trying to be some form of autodidact in martial arts -- get some actual instruction. Your time will be more productively used, and you can turn that autodidactic energy to something else that will be more rewarding of that learning method. Heck, you'll even get to spend some time with people and maybe even have some fun. I add that since most people I find trying to do so much learning on their own also tend to be somewhat socially isolated. Whether the isolation is a result of having to work to learn things or the learning method reflects something deeper is immaterial... and probably unprovable. But moving out of comfort zones is a big thing that happens with a lot of martial arts training.

 

[yak sao]

I'll give you the same advice Ive given numerous times to people in your situation.
If there is no WC teacher in your town, bring one to you.
Find a WC teacher in your region that is willing to travel to you on a monthly basis and train you.
Split the cost among a few buddies and train with them between sessions with your teacher.
It's not the ideal situation, but it is a much better alternative to going it alone.

 

[Argus]

Mograph & J W, thank you for your kind advice.

I think that I understand your points more clearly now. In essence, if the form of communication that we have in a martial art like Wing Chun is tactile - responding to touch and pressure, then for two non-practitioners of the art to learn it might be akin to two people who don't know a language learning it on their own, and without ever having heard or held a conversation with a native speaker. That's certainly an absurd idea, and quite the opposite of my whole take on language learning.


jks9199,

I'll use another analogy here to explain my initial view - however incorrect it may be. Another one of my big hobbies is Civil War reenactment, and I have a deep interest in the tactics used in the Seven Years War, Napoleonic Wars, and the American Civil War. I've read countless manuals in both French and English from these eras, and they contain some of the most detailed and complete instructions I have ever read. After several years of studying all of this as a hobby, it has become very apparent how lazy most reenactors are in passing down this knowledge, and what is even more striking is how many incorrect practices are taught and passed down, and become mainstream. So you will often find officers standing in all the wrong places, giving incorrect, or entirely fictional commands. The men in the ranks sometimes haven't been taught to march and dress properly, and when large numbers of reenactors come together to practice battalion-level maneuvers for events, they often have much difficulty with crowding their guides and losing step. The guides themselves often have difficulty taking straight lines of march, simply having never practiced this, or because of the pressure of other men in the ranks dressing in on them. However, more professional reenactors who actually do the research and study the manuals in detail don't have these kinds of problems. From what I have seen, with an eye for detail and a strong understanding of what should happen, you can make good application in the field of what you study in theory.

I'm not going to defend my Japanese ability here, but I will suffice it to say that you make some very false assumptions. I know very well what I am talking about when it comes to this subject, and I know enough to know just how much I don't know. But more importantly, I've taken classes and met many other students. After a year and a half of self-study, I took an Advanced Japanese class, and was disappointed. They were still working on basics and introducing for the first time concepts that I had been practicing for a year already. The students could not use even the most basic Japanese conversationally, because they had never practiced it outside of class. Vocabulary, reading, writing, and pronunciation were all just... not there, because they had never used the language in the real world, and didn't practice or study outside of class.

My Japanese is what I would call "intermediate." I can watch movies, and talk to my friends in Japan without much difficulty. I can read websites and magazines (in Japanese; not romaji. You won't find anything written in romaji, other than the occasional English word), read my friends' blogs, and that sort of thing as well. However, I'm well aware of where I'm lacking; I can't use keigo (extremely polite japanese), and I'm lost when talking, or reading about business or politics. Literary Japanese is also somewhat difficult for me; some novels, for example, use a lot of words that you wouldn't use in spoken Japanese, and are very detailed and descriptive, so that can be a challenge. However, in the end, it all boils down to experience; how much time and effort have you put into studying, practicing, and using the language outside of class? The more you use it, and the more you see and hear it used, the better you get at the language - both in acquiring knowledge and good habits, and just simply "getting a feel for the language." The more you hear others speak it, the more you notice when you say something that doesn't sound very natural, or catch nuances that you weren't aware of before. Only in this way do you become better aware of your level of understanding and proficiency, and you can work to improve. The students who don't make progress are those who are too afraid (or lazy) to study, practice, and use it on their own.

However, as I mentioned above, I realize now that to practice Wing Chun, I need to expose myself to people who speak Wing Chun, if you will. In this sense, it is probably more like a language than it is tactics. I suppose this makes sense, because Wing Chun is not a technique based system.


yak sao,

Thanks for the advice. That is a great idea, and definitely an option!


In conclusion, I'll check out the Liu International Shaolin Institute, and see what they have to offer first. If they have Wing Chun and look decent, I'll start there first.

 

[J W]

I think that I understand your points more clearly now. In essence, if the form of communication that we have in a martial art like Wing Chun is tactile - responding to touch and pressure, then for two non-practitioners of the art to learn it might be akin to two people who don't know a language learning it on their own, and without ever having heard or held a conversation with a native speaker. That's certainly an absurd idea, and quite the opposite of my whole take on language learning.

I'd say that is a fair analogy. Much of the communication between teacher and student in Wing Chun is tactile, and without that method of communication available to you, you don't stand much of a chance of learning properly.

Glad to see that we were able to get through to you; some people with this notion of teaching themselves just can't be reasoned with, and are convinced that they can pull it off. If you've got some time to waste, you can read through this thread that was going on when I first joined MT:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...d-help!!!&highlight=lone+wing+chun+practioner

You can see how well this worked out for him.

It sounds like you may have some options to learn Wing Chun after all, hopefully that Liu Institute will work out for you. Let us know how it goes.

 

[mograph]

Excellent. Godspeed, young Argus!

 

[Vajramusti]

I agree with the skepticism on self taught wing chun.
If the gentleman is serious some sacrifices are in order.
Drive or fly to a good wing chun school and get started and then
practice and follow up at regular intervals.

I began wing chun with my sifu Fong in Tucson when I lived in Tucson.
Years later my employment took me to Las Cruces NM. For six years after that I drove roundtrip 540 miles each week
to get instruction on Friday, Saturday and Sundays.(then I came back to Arizona- not to Tucson but up the road to Tempe))
I still stay in touch with my sifu, kung fu brothers and sisters.

245 miles away from you there is a Moy Yat kwoon in Tallahassee, Florida.
There is a sifu Ying Hung who teaches there I believe. Check him and his school out-
if you are serious.

Or, there may be a top flight instructor of some other style that you can learn from.

 

[Danny T]

Argus,
You can certainly read and research much on Wing Chun and even gain some insight into the principles and concepts. You can see and simulate the movements, positions, and structures of what the wing chun system trains. You can become very proficient in the presentation of the forms. What you 'will not' have is the understanding of, ability to use, or be at any level of proficience in is the 'feel' of what wing chun is about. You may be an amazing self taught learner, but you can not learn something you do not know what to learn. You may know you have to learn something about feel but what is it you have to learn? The true understanding of the wing chun system is in the 'feel' and you will not get that from reading. Only from someone who knows the how and why of the feel. If you pursue anyway, all the best. Learning the positions, movements, and presentations "IS NOT" learning Wing Chun.

 

[Domino]

Research to begin with is good but dont over think it.
Also as you said, that training incorrectly could just waste your time, go feel for yourself in a class, you will probably then get the bug.

 

[Argus]

Well, I checked out the Shaolin Institute. I walked in, spoke with the "receptionist" (?) for a few minutes, filled out a basic sheet with my contact information, etc., and then was given a tour. One thing that I noticed is that they had "belts." On the floor, I observed several students practicing Tai-Chi forms. I was introduced to the Grand Master, who heads The Liu International Shaolin Institute, which in all has three other schools. He is a Shaolin Monk who left and came here in the 80's. We spoke for a short time about my interest in martial arts, and he spoke about Shaolin Kung-fu. After this, I was introduced to either a top student, or another teacher, and was given a short intro lesson on the floor.

On the floor, I was taught to salute (the palm and fist), and we covered the very starting points of Shaolin Kung-fu (Wushu, I think?) and Chinese Kick-Boxing. Unfortunately, when I inquired about Wing Chun, they seemed to try to persuade me towards Shaolin Kung-fu instead, and mostly equated it with sticky hands practice. My instructor claimed to have done a little Wing Chun, but expressed his opinion that it wasn't very practical, and seemed to be more into kick-boxing.

After this, I spoke with the master again, showed him what we went over, and spoke about classes. He also spoke a lot about his philosophy regarding Kung-fu and Shaolin ideals, which I found interesting. He had a very high opinion of Shaolin though, and spoke of both Shaolin temple's reputation, and his own school's. He claims to have trained two famous UFC fighters. Returning to the subject of classes and pricing, he said that classes were $99/mo for weekly lessons, and $199/mo for two or more lessons a week, though motivated students could receive "scholarships" for extra weekly lessons. They also wanted a $200/year fee.

All in all, it was interesting, and I enjoyed talking to him and getting my first taste of classes, but I don't think it is for me. I'm not really interested in Shaolin Kung-fu/Wushu, and not at all interested in Kick-boxing, though Tai-chi has some appeal. Moreover, they seem very expensive, and to want a big commitment up front. I was also slightly put off by how they spoke a lot of their reputation, and didn't have much interest in Wing-Chun (or my interest in it), though I can understand why they would be proud of their Shaolin lineage.

So, I'm pretty much left to other options, or martial arts. I will try networking and finding a teacher or qualified student whom I can meet up with, or perhaps some other arrangement. I will check out that Moy Yat kwoon in Tallahassee. It's quite a long way to drive, and I'm not sure if I have the time and money to make it happen, but perhaps we can arrange something.

 

[simplewc101]

nothing is as beneficial as having someone personally teach you wing chun. you can not get better if you do not touch hands with someone better than you.

When this subject pops up I always go to http://www.wcarchive.com/html/wing-chun-schools.htm and search accordingly. It's usually fairly up to date with phone numbers and links to webpages.
the only one I saw in AL is almost 4 hours away from Mobile, but there is a Ip Man > Ip Ching lineage school in FL that is much closer. I would recommend seeing if you can get a few buddies to go with you and take either his private or group classes. That way, you will have some people to practice with on your own time.

http://centerlinewingchun.com/

many people on these forums have traveled as far or further to learn. If you get the WC bug, there's no tellin how far one might go to get their fix

hope this helps

 

[Argus]

That's actually not so far! Half the distance of Tallahassee, in fact!

 

[wtxs]

All in all, it was interesting, and I enjoyed talking to him and getting my first taste of classes, but I don't think it is for me. I'm not really interested in Shaolin Kung-fu/Wushu, and not at all interested in Kick-boxing, though Tai-chi has some appeal. Moreover, they seem very expensive, and to want a big commitment up front. I was also slightly put off by how they spoke a lot of their reputation, and didn't have much interest in Wing-Chun (or my interest in it), though I can understand why they would be proud of their Shaolin lineage.

So, I'm pretty much left to other options, or martial arts. I will try networking and finding a teacher or qualified student whom I can meet up with, or perhaps some other arrangement. I will check out that Moy Yat kwoon in Tallahassee. It's quite a long way to drive, and I'm not sure if I have the time and money to make it happen, but perhaps we can arrange something.

Sorry to hear you are not having luck finding WC close to you. As high lighted above in bold, you had also gotten an big'ol taste of classic commercialism. I, as many others, teach/works out in private group/setting, Craig's list and networking are your best bet if you try to stay closer to home.

Wish you an happy ending to your search.

 

[Domino]

Seems a nice meet and great.
I cant sway your opinion but go with your gutt instinct, which I think you already have.

 

[ilhe4e12345]

im gonna give you my honest truth behind this idea...and that would be dont ever train yourself. Im sorry but you cant...you def wont get the same experience that you would from learning off of a teacher or even a 1-2 year WC student. I always thought that it would be easy to learn a martial art on your own, with the vast amount of information and things out there (interent, tv, movies, books, digital etc..) but you just cant. You will never get what you can get from a teacher...ever. Its impossible to fully understand everythin that is going on especially with a martial art. You cang et all the books you want, all the videos and study every single day till you cant lift your arms or move but it will never be the same as training with a teacher.

I personally have looked into "distance learning" courses and currently own many books on different styles but it is just a waste in money and time trying to teach yourself without any previous training in any martial art and even then if you knew something else, all styles are different so an example would be knowing Karate for 10 uears doesnt mean you can teach yourself Kung Fu White Crane.....you just cant.

I had to waste the time and money to finally open my eyes to the fact that I can never learn certain styles due to them not being in my area. That doesnt stop me from owning many books on the different styles and its always good to open my mind up but I will never say "hey i know drunken boxing because I have 3 books on it and have gone through them every day". I love Wing Chun, and after becoming interested in it from the IP Man movies (I know its a movie but it was enough to get me interested) and after taking lessons from ym current teacher I can tell you....two classes with my current teacher alone taught me more then any books I could ever read.

Sorry Im not trying to shoot your dreams down, or insult you. Im trying to give you my personal experience and tell you that it wont be anything like learning from a teacher....I love martial arts and I hope that my experiences will help you out. Please take the time and do whatever you can..even if that means you can only see a teacher once a month because of the distance or only ever learn from seminars.....its worth it...always worth it....

Happy Training Friend

 

[James Kovacich]

Sorry to hear you are not having luck finding WC close to you. As high lighted above in bold, you had also gotten an big'ol taste of classic commercialism. I, as many others, teach/works out in private group/setting, Craig's list and networking are your best bet if you try to stay closer to home.

Wish you an happy ending to your search.

You will never "experience" sensitivity on your own or with your (WC) inexperienced training partner. I don't know Alabama but Sifu Lamar Davis is in Alabama and work looking at. He teaches JKD but it heavily WC influenced. He has much to offer.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk

 

[XDJuicebox]

While it is extremely difficult to learn by yourself, it is still possible - but it's so difficult that it's basically impossible. You kind of have to be lucky and hoped that you interpreted all of the material properly.

I'm also learning Wing Chun by myself [with a buddy of course], and it's actually a bit difficult, there are so many questions that come up, and I try to get them answered on the internet, but you'll never know how proper Chi Sau feels until you do it with someone that knows.

There is someone who explains everything extremely well though, and that's Jin Young [who studied under Hawkins Cheung, and trains in LA], and he can be found at www.youtube.com/chinaboxer

I mainly learned from him, and he is a great teacher - and he has a lot of these tests that you can do so that you know if you're doing it right or not, which is pretty neat.

I'm planning on driving down so that I can get him to tell me everything that I'm doing wrong

But hey, you can try and learn as much as you can, but I would recommend getting an instructor at some point [maybe when you save up enough to start traveling?] to correct your errors.

 

[J W]

While it is extremely difficult to learn by yourself, it is still possible - but it's so difficult that it's basically impossible. You kind of have to be lucky and hoped that you interpreted all of the material properly.

I would put the odds of correctly interpreting all of the material without an actual instructor at next to nil. 1 in a million. Please don't think that you will be the one to do it.

I'm planning on driving down so that I can get him to tell me everything that I'm doing wrong

But hey, you can try and learn as much as you can, but I would recommend getting an instructor at some point [maybe when you save up enough to start traveling?] to correct your errors.

I would advise against trying to learn anything before you meet with an instructor. Without an instructor, you will most likely be doing a lot wrong. Expecting an instructor to undo all of the bad habits that you've taught yourself in a session or two is a bit unrealistic, let alone actually learning anything new in those sessions.

If you really want to learn and Chinaboxer is willing to teach you in person, then you should drive down and study under him regularly, not just watch his Youtube videos and then drive down at some point expecting him to undo your bad habits.

 

[Argus]

While it is extremely difficult to learn by yourself, it is still possible - but it's so difficult that it's basically impossible. You kind of have to be lucky and hoped that you interpreted all of the material properly.

I'm also learning Wing Chun by myself [with a buddy of course], and it's actually a bit difficult, there are so many questions that come up, and I try to get them answered on the internet, but you'll never know how proper Chi Sau feels until you do it with someone that knows.

There is someone who explains everything extremely well though, and that's Jin Young [who studied under Hawkins Cheung, and trains in LA], and he can be found at www.youtube.com/chinaboxer

I mainly learned from him, and he is a great teacher - and he has a lot of these tests that you can do so that you know if you're doing it right or not, which is pretty neat.

I'm planning on driving down so that I can get him to tell me everything that I'm doing wrong

But hey, you can try and learn as much as you can, but I would recommend getting an instructor at some point [maybe when you save up enough to start traveling?] to correct your errors.

That was exactly my take on everything. I've also watched all of chinaboxer's videos, and the amount of depth he goes into is very good. He mentions all of the things that he looks for when correcting students. All of the common mistakes, and how you can check yourself to make sure you're doing it right. Even Moy Yat touched on this when discussing forms. I've always been of the strong opinion that discipline and learning must be self-imposed, and that many people rely far too heavily on teachers to always correct their mistakes. In the same way, whenever possible, I believe that teachers should not just correct mistakes, but explain to the student how to recognize and correct them. Mistakes are for the student to know about and correct first; if he has to be corrected by the teacher all of the time, he's not learning. At least, not as efficiently as he could be.

At any rate though, I'll defer to everyone else here with more experience until I really know what I am talking about. I'm driving 2.5 hours to attend my first class tomorrow, and from here on, I'll probably be asking questions like "how do I know that I am doing this right?" or "how should this feel?" a lot. I want to learn what to look for, and get the right feeling so that I can correct myself.