Self Promotions

[GAB]

This guy could have most definitely got into some serious training in the last 30 years or so from some very competent people, I'll give him that. Although, I don't believe all this Koga ha ryu ninjitsu stuff he's selling based on Mitose. He could also be a very talented teacher. I'll give him that too. He could have very well earned/deserved everything he has, including an honorary 7th dan personally from Professor William Kwai Sun Chow, if true, I'll give him that too, but let's face it, he wasn't convicted for spitting on the sidewalk, a barroom brawl, booking & gambling, possession of narcotics..........what we have to remember here is the brutality of this crime and its innocent victims. The details from that trial are horrendous. What if that were Koga ha's grandparents? I wonder how forgiving he would be then? I grant you, if you had no knowledge of this guy, Hassan was Lee, his bio looks like he walks on water. This is only my personal opinion reflected by my almost three decades in law enforcement and working with victims of violent crimes. You know, these days, murderers are not allowed to make money off their crimes with books, movies, etc., not that this is exactly the same scenerio but he was convicted of a violent crime in relation to martial arts and his instructor. I don't think this would be allowed in these days and times. I guess things were much different then or the parole system in California at that time was very, very liberal by not imposing such stipulations to his parole.

Hi All,

This is a very isolated case, and as serious as it was/is I am really surprised myself, that Koga Ha would present this with a feeling of respect for this person is interesting. More than likely Koga Ha is also the same religion as Hassan and if true would explain his devotion.

Part of the Martial Art is Ninja??? Ninjas are/were Assassans, Hassan's name can be interpreted as "Leopard Assassan".

Just a thought that was wandering around, it might be similar to a cult devotion. If this is the case I think the authorities in the area should be informed and find out what is happening in that particular school...

Regards, Gary

 

[koga ha]

In a short time I figured out Koga Ho as a goof:supcool:

good, since you got me all figured out, i don't expect to hear from you on this thread again...bye.

 

[Jeff Boler]

good, since you got me all figured out, i don't expect to hear from you on this thread again...bye.

No offense, but what do you expect? When the only argument you bring to the table is petty little insults, then this is what you get.

If you like your instruction under Hassan...great. Keep at it. If you can look beyond his past and accept the fact that he is a convicted murderer; that he spent less than seven weeks training under Mitose, then that's great.

I know....you don't know what the truth is, but it will come out in time. There, I even responded for you.

 

[koga ha]

WOW, this is getting pretty heated! The only thing I wish to add is this. Martial arts instructors convey an image of public trust, no, wrong words, not 'convey' but should 'qualify' for the position of public trust period. It doesn't mean you have to be a saint but there are certain lines or parameters that are not to be crossed, ever! Police officers are held to this higher standard of public trust and that is why if someone who has a past felony record need not apply or if a police officer committs a felony, he's history, which goes without saying since he'd be incarcerated for it. As a matter of fact, in most cases, a misdemeanor is more than enough to give a cop the ax. An out of town cop was arrested recently in my community for continuing a fight at a local lounge after our guys had arrived and quelled the disturbance. He had a clean record and was fairly new with his department. He was terminated by his police chief. I, in no way feel it should be that harsh for M.A. instructors but a line does have to be drawn. My point being, police, fire, priests, teachers, coaches and martial arts instructors are all held in a position of public trust. As far as my police profession goes, if you did time for murder/conspiracy and were a 'model' prisoner and 'found God', etc., you still need not apply!

Personally, it doesn't matter to me if this guy is the greatest martial artist that ever came down the pike and can kick all our butts, he should not be in a position of public trust. What is wrong with holding our martial arts to a higher standard. Please don't get me wrong. I don't feel it should be as strict as a police job as I stated previously, for I know some people make mistakes and get into trouble and then change their life around. I've helped some myself and I know many of you reading this have too, but where do we draw the line? I know where I do. Murder is one of them or any crime that shocks the conscience, sex offenders, etc. Well, I'm sure I made my point. No, sorry, this guy should not be teaching, ESPECIALLY since his crimes were that of VIOLENCE while STUDYING A MARTAIL ART perpetrated on an elderly couple. If you ask me that should have been a STIPULATION of his parole-Nothing to do with the martial arts ever again!!! Does anyone think this is unreasonable?

well, karazenpo, i guess in you neck of the woods police officers get fired for fighting.

i'm glad you brought up the public trust issue. why is it when i look at the news and see preists convicted of touching little boys and the worse thing that happens is re-location. ah, so they can touch more boys. no jail time, nothing...is that justice? is there something to state their should be no contact with boys and girls for that matter...no.

okay, so we know where you draw the line...fine, but to sit there and riddicule someone for something that happened 30+ yrs ago.

at least hassan paid his debt to society. people seem to forget or don't know that hassan was a star athlete in philadelphia, a scholorship player in college for football and track, a war vet...you get my point. he wasn't some thug off the streets.

i'm a little confused about your last statement: violence and martial arts. maybe your art plays patty cake in the backyard or dojo, but the last time i checked the arts were developed to control people through pain. oh, and for the elderly couple you refer to...the farmer (wish i could spell his name) was no joke. in fact, he was a very skilled ma. not that it makes everything better, but you put in context like he was some old fragile man.

so, you say hassan should not be teaching ma...well, obviously from your statement i see why; however, from a pure ma prespective he's the prime candidate and is living proof that the system works in the worst environment.

a lot of the time people fall in love with the personality (instructor) of the art and not the system.

anyway, i think your statement is unreasonable.

 

[RRouuselot]

What a concept. I'm on the legit end, 26 years of Training In Kempo in the Boston Area, ( Villari's Shaolin Kempo ) but where did it all start. Two schools of thought.
You own you're own company, aren't you the CEO and you take on what ever title you want. As long as you can back it up on the mat.

Even the oldest, highest ranking GM had to start somewhere. So at some point in time, someone had to be the first to "Promote themselves" Someone had to start it, right? Even the oldest Soke. Think about it. It's like saying when did God begin to exist. Close your eye's and picture that one.

Whatever line you come form, someone was the first in that line to be the GM and promote themselves. So in essence, don't we all come form someone,somewhere that was self-promoted?

Just give me a plain, old fashioned BlackBelt, no stripes, no frills. Simplicity.

Just my thoughts,
Michael

I don’t think people should promote themselves in rank for several reasons.

1) People these days will take advantage of such a thing and promote themselves to “35th dan Grand-Sokedoke- Lord Privy Seal” with little training. Such people make a joke of what others sincerely study and lower the integrity of the arts in general. This is by no means an American “sickness” ….they have the same kind of morons in Japan as well.

2) Some folks think by promoting themselves they automatically get better technique because of the rank……instead of getting better technique then getting promoted.

I prefer the old Okniwan and Chinese way of rank……..just don’t have any and train.

In my teachers system we all wear what is called in Japanese as a “nobakama” (field hakama). We all have the same color belt from 10th kyu all the way up to the highest dan rank. This eliminates a lot of ego. I have seen many schools in Japan where people of higher ranks treat lower ranks “differently” because of the color of their belt. Rank discrimination I guess you could call it.

Rank and colored belts are a double edged sword.

I have had visitors in my dojo that claimed some pretty lofty dan ranks and yet if I were to grade them on basic technique like punches, kicks and so on…(no kata performance/knowledge) some would be at a kyu rank level.

What is considered a high level of skill by one school might be considered quite low by another.
*I have witnessed some demos by highly ranked Japanese and Okinawan karateka that many folks think are “the bomb” and thought “what the hell do people see in his technique that they think is so good?”

*Doesn't apply to all just a couple.

 

[koga ha]

Your demonstrations of ignorance are astounding. Look into Sigung Bishop's record before you conclude that he just goes on hearsay.

why, because he got some documents from the tracy's?

i'm still waiting to get the jfk documents...and o.j.'s.

does sigung bishop know when those will be out?

 

[koga ha]

The truth is already known. Hassan is a convicted murderer. He studied with Mitose for seven weeks, and now claims some rediculous rank and title. If i'm wrong prove it. Otherwise, you are just making yourself look foolish.

It's over. 1987 - 1999. I have the rank certificates to prove it. End of story, nice try.

you simplified your statement, so yes the first part is true. the study and rank is false.

ask your buddy, karazenpo, about the "ridiculous" rank. he's the pr guy for the hmais.

like i said, i don't have to prove anything to you.

'87-'99, i guess you showed me. should i take your word for it?

 

[koga ha]

Prof. Joe,

I totally agree! This fellow with 7 weeks, or "many hours" of training, and a murder on his record wants to be acknowledged as a Grand Master by the MA community?

i really find your comments amazing because you talk like you know. hassan does not seek out these titles and if you don't believe me, ask him. better yet, ask the organization who issued them.

you guys seem to be big history buffs and researchers. let me know what you find out.

 

[The Kai]

Whether or not what you like what he says Mr Bishops research and knowledge goes way beyond looking at the tracy's website!

Todd

 

[Jeff Boler]

like i said, i don't have to prove anything to you.

No, you can't. What is their to prove? Is Hassan a convicted murderer? Yes, yourself already admitted that. What else needs to be proven? His rank with Durbin? It was given to him.

'87-'99, i guess you showed me. should i take your word for it?

Who cares. I am not the one backing a convicted felon, you are.

 

[koga ha]

Hi All,

This is a very isolated case, and as serious as it was/is I am really surprised myself, that Koga Ha would present this with a feeling of respect for this person is interesting. More than likely Koga Ha is also the same religion as Hassan and if true would explain his devotion.

Part of the Martial Art is Ninja??? Ninjas are/were Assassans, Hassan's name can be interpreted as "Leopard Assassan".

Just a thought that was wandering around, it might be similar to a cult devotion. If this is the case I think the authorities in the area should be informed and find out what is happening in that particular school...

Regards, Gary

actually, i'm not the same religion. i just haven't been eating the crap off the same plate as you.

big deal...you and many others translated his name into leopard, panther, kitty cat assassan. and your point is?

actually, we have "authorities", doctors, professors, etc. in class.

"...a cult devotion..." spooky! :anic:

 

[koga ha]

No offense, but what do you expect? When the only argument you bring to the table is petty little insults, then this is what you get.

If you like your instruction under Hassan...great. Keep at it. If you can look beyond his past and accept the fact that he is a convicted murderer; that he spent less than seven weeks training under Mitose, then that's great.

I know....you don't know what the truth is, but it will come out in time. There, I even responded for you.

petty insults...you and others insult someone because of what you think you know. i would be offended.

i know the full story, but i don't feel it's my place to let everything out. you on the other hand get half the story and preach like it's the gospel.

 

[koga ha]

Whether or not what you like what he says Mr Bishops research and knowledge goes way beyond looking at the tracy's website!

Todd

oh, your back. okay, i'll take your word for it.

 

[koga ha]

No can you. What is their to prove? Is Hassan a convicted murderer? Yes, yourself already admitted that. What else needs to be proven? His rank with Durbin? It was given to him.

Who cares. I am not the one backing a convicted felon, you are.

right, who cares. thanks for the conversation.

 

[Karazenpo]

well, karazenpo, i guess in you neck of the woods police officers get fired for fighting.

i'm glad you brought up the public trust issue. why is it when i look at the news and see preists convicted of touching little boys and the worse thing that happens is re-location. ah, so they can touch more boys. no jail time, nothing...is that justice? is there something to state their should be no contact with boys and girls for that matter...no.

okay, so we know where you draw the line...fine, but to sit there and riddicule someone for something that happened 30+ yrs ago.

at least hassan paid his debt to society. people seem to forget or don't know that hassan was a star athlete in philadelphia, a scholorship player in college for football and track, a war vet...you get my point. he wasn't some thug off the streets.

i'm a little confused about your last statement: violence and martial arts. maybe your art plays patty cake in the backyard or dojo, but the last time i checked the arts were developed to control people through pain. oh, and for the elderly couple you refer to...the farmer (wish i could spell his name) was no joke. in fact, he was a very skilled ma. not that it makes everything better, but you put in context like he was some old fragile man.

so, you say hassan should not be teaching ma...well, obviously from your statement i see why; however, from a pure ma prespective he's the prime candidate and is living proof that the system works in the worst environment.

a lot of the time people fall in love with the personality (instructor) of the art and not the system.

anyway, i think your statement is unreasonable.

Please reread my post. No, wrong, the police officer who was off duty was NOT arrested for fighting per se. He was arrested for fighting after my brother police officers told him to knock it off. He simply ignored them, pushed past them and went at it. I'm willing to bet if you were there and he wasn't taken in, you'd be the first to run your butt down to city hall and make a complaint that the cops took care of their own and if that was you, you'd be locked up! C'ome on, I didn't fall off a turnup truck!

the preists, I absolutely agree with but your issue should not be taken up with the legal system, go to the Catholic church, for they are the ones that covered it up. I'm a Catholic and I'm disgusted in the handling of the situation. Better yet, see your friend, he's the one who found God.

You say: okay, so we know where you draw the line...fine, but to sit there and riddicule someone for something that happened 30+ yrs ago.

I say: Are you kidd'n. You phrase it, 'something that happened'-an elderly man murdered in his home and his wife beaten half to death and you act like it was a DWI conviction! Whewwwwwwww!

You say: so, you say hassan should not be teaching ma...well, obviously from your statement i see why; however, from a pure ma prespective he's the prime candidate and is living proof that the system works in the worst environment.

I say: With all it's flaws it's the only system we have right now and we just have to make the best of it but a little more common sense and sensitvity to victims rights wouldn't hurt either.

You say: he wasn't some thug off the streets.

I say: You breed ignorance on that statement. look at how many murderers are described by friends, neighbors and co-workers as church going and pillars within the community! Do you live in a cave?

You say: violence and martial arts. maybe your art plays patty cake in the backyard or dojo

I say; Your welcome to 'play patty cake with me or any one of my people anytime but it is you that conceals your identity? Insecurity and lack of confidence, ya think? Perhaps you have the wrong instructor because there is more to the martial arts than violence but considering your source of instruction, I understand why you view it that way.

Here's the biggest joke you've told yet: the farmer (wish i could spell his name) was no joke. in fact, he was a very skilled ma.

I say: Really........was his elderly wife that he beat half to death a highly skilled martial artist too? You gotta be kidd'n? How is anyone on this board going to take you serious with that statement?

You say: a lot of the time people fall in love with the personality (instructor) of the art and not the system. anyway, i think your statement is unreasonable.[/QUOTE]

I say: We'll let the others on this forum judge this one.

In closing, I did not insult you sir in my post that you quoted me from, not at all. You're screen name only came up when I asked if you'd feel the same way if the victims were your grandprents AND I NOTICED THAT'S THE ONLY QUESTION YOU DID NOT ANSWER! There was no need of that type of response to my post from you, just reread my original and you tell me where I had insulted you!

 

[tshadowchaser]

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[Karazenpo]

you simplified your statement, so yes the first part is true. the study and rank is false.

ask your buddy, karazenpo, about the "ridiculous" rank. he's the pr guy for the hmais.

like i said, i don't have to prove anything to you.

'87-'99, i guess you showed me. should i take your word for it?

Get this straight too, reread my post that you originally quoted from. I did not mention anything about anyone's abilities or rank in a negative connotation and if you read his bio in the HMAIS, I stated it appears he walks on water. No one that didn't know would ever make the connection to Lee. I also stated that he may have very well received some excellent training in those 30 years with some very notable instructors and I also mentioned his honorary 7th from Chow. I did say, though, I don't believe the embellished connection to training with Mitose, that's all. Furthermore, if you have a problem with the HMAIS, take it to it's founder. My opinion, and I stated it is my opinion, is the sole opinion of myself and does not reflect the opinions of HMAIS, the KGS BBS, the WMAF or NCK. It is my opinion as a human being and 29 year veteran of law enforcement. It is what it is!

 

[The Kai]

i really find your comments amazing because you talk like you know. hassan does not seek out these titles and if you don't believe me, ask him. better yet, ask the organization who issued them.

you guys seem to be big history buffs and researchers. let me know what you find out.

You don't hook up with Durbin unless you're seeking those titles, the organization that issued them? the same.

Todd

 

[Jeff Boler]

Let me make this clear. I'm not debating whether or not Hassan is a good person. I personally believe that he is. I believe that he underwent some religious conviction, and I believe he has been rehabilitated.

This whole issue is about two things. Number one, does he have inflated rank, and should he be teaching. According to an article written by Durbin,

Nimr Hassan has been training in the system of Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo for twenty plus years.

The problem is that he only received 7 weeks of instruction under Mitose. How much could he have learned? Remember, all of Hassan's history is written by Durbin. Durbin's theories as to the "truth" behind the Mitose's demise are nothing less than bizarre. According to Durbin,

At this point I have to express my own opinion on this matter. From the research I have done, the people I have talked to, and a study of the appeal papers, I really believe that James Masayoshi Mitose and his student were innocent. Yes there was a fight between the student and Frank Namimatsu, but I believe the student when he says that he did not kill the man.

We might wonder who did? There has been talk that the Yakuza might have been involved in having Mitose's name smeared since he was loaning money to people they would have been able to extort if it were not for him. There are those who say that other matters were involved, which I prefer not to get into, simply because the people are dead and I do not want to malign the memory of those individuals. There are a lot of other explanations to the death of Frank Namimatsu, which were not explored simply because the authorities had the person they believed were guilty and did not fully investigate the situation.

Was Mitose guilty of extortion? It looks like he was, but only due to ignorance of the law. He thought he was doing people a favor by loaning them money, and just in getting the returns where it was deserved. American law does not agree with this method, thus Mitose may have overstepped the bounds of the law, but was this severe enough to engender him dying in prison, probably not.

I think Durbin has intentionally come up with these theories to push his own agendas. So what, every historian I have ever known does the same thing. It's up to the reader as to whether or not they believe it.

So...this hasn't been a personal assault on Nimr Hassan. It's an opinon based on his seven weeks of training under James Mitose. It does not say in Durbin's article that he continued learning the system under someone else. By reading Durbin's work, he discontinued studying all arts at the time he inherited Mitose's. Does seven weeks of training under a master make you one? Even if you "inherit" the system, how much of the system could you possible know?

Then, there's the murder conviction. Surely he realizes that he will always be scrutinized for his past. Did he pays his debt to society. Yes, even thow I think the sentencing he received is rediculous. But, that does not erase what he did. And i'm sorry, but I do not think that people who are convicted of felony, violent crimes should be allowed to teach martial arts, or study them, for that matter.

My opinion, of course.

 

[Jeff Boler]

You might also notice in the clip above that Durbin refers to the murderer as "The Student", not Nimr Hassan. It's because of this "concealment" technique that I left Durbin in the first place. If he believed the stories that Hassan told him, as well as the fact that he has served his time, why did he refer to him as "The Student", and not Nimr Hassan?