Self Defense from rape

JowGaWolf

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Not even slightly funny, in fact it's bang out of order.
That's why I put what I was joking about. Not about the my female students getting attacked, but the getting 200 new attendees that joined because they saw another woman was successful in fending off an attack. Kelly (the lady that was attack) is not the only woman in Seattle that has successfully defended herself against an attack or attempted rape. Much of Kelly's appeal comes from social media and what she posted about what happened to her. The only real technique that Kelly claims to have learned from her self defense class was to fight back.

I know through my own life experiences I have seen girls and women physically defend themselves against boys and men, right before my eyes, so I know there's no way I'm the only one witnessing this natural ability in women and girls.

A self defence seminar which empowers women, doesn't, it gives them a false sense of security that they can fight their attacker off easily.
This is the other part that my comments touch on. 200 new women enroll into a self-defense class (free one at that), where the majority are only taking the self-defense from the same class that Kelly took, thinking and believing that the same self-defense class will produce the same results. This is where the danger comes in. The mentality of "Kelly took this class and it worked for her, so I can take this class and it'll work for me." is the worst mentality to have about anything. Basing my chances of survival on the success of others and not actually on my ability or lack of it. I would think that if they were honestly inspired that these same women would be joining martial art schools that have sparring and conditioning available on a regular. I always tell students both men and women that it's important to know and understand their limitations, because that's what helps people to make better choices when it comes to self-defense. Denial about these limitations will cause a person to be over confident and to make choices that aren't realistic the person's conditioning and ability. Running isn't always a solution and sometimes winning is not a possibility and when that happens, a person better have a really good plan that will give them the best possible outcome. Sometimes the ability to delay or draw out an attack is the next best thing.
 

JowGaWolf

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That said, I don't agree that women (or men, either) don't gain from learning how to hit, kick, etc. Most people aren't very good at it. In a moment of need, if a person decides to fight, they are best served by having some training to improve the chances of that decision leading to success (however they define it).
I think every person should learn how to do basic hits, kicks, and escapes. The reason why most people aren't good at them is because they don't train it. It's like playing a musical instrument, you only get good with practice. You may not be the best at playing that instrument, but you're much better than someone who has never practice the instrument before.

The only thing about physically fighting is that people have to factor in their limitations, their capabilities, and abilities into their self-defense plans. I can punch and kick like a monster, but when I injure my hand or leg from training, then I have to factor in those injuries when I think of my self-defense strategy. Most people will say things like "oh I'll just run away" and never considered that they don't run fast enough to run away.

Hitting, Kicking, and Escaping are skills sets, and our self-defense abilities are only improved by having those skill sets. Sometimes it's those skill sets that make it possible for us to avoid fights. Looking like you can physically protect yourself is much better than looking as if you can't physically protect yourself. People who can punch and kick can recognize when someone else doesn't know how to punch and kick and that will embolden them. Not sure where this took place, but the lady in is definitely befitting from her ability to punch, kick, and escape.
 

JowGaWolf

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I do think a short course isn't optimal. However, as long as it doesn't leave them feeling invincible (like the Cub leader you mentioned), it can still have value to them.
If the short course helps the person to better understand the reality of self-defense and some of the factors involved then the course is worth it. Just like the lady in the article (Kelly), the only thing she stated that she learned from the self-defense class was that it was ok to fight back. The lecture about being aware of her environment probably has more meaning now, but I think the class that she took helped her to get over the hesitation of the reality of hurting someone. The class help her to accept that it was o.k. Now she's all pumped up, but I hope she takes an actual martial art class where she can train and get good with some basics.

For example, sparring as the side benefit of teaching students how to be more aware of aggressive movements in people, especial in the context of someone trying to size you (general) up with the intent of causing harm. Sparring makes it easier to recognize that predatory stalking and focus that people have when they are setting up for an attack.

There's a lot of non-physical skill sets as well, but sometimes people think. "It won't happen to me" and as a result may not take the "be aware of your surroundings" as seriously as they should. When woman runs in the leggings (athletic wear) that shows off their body, then she has to realize that it will attract good guys and bad guys. And sometimes what she wear will send different messages to different types of people. It doesn't mean she can't wear it, it just means that she has to be aware of the risks and be on higher alert.

I'm a black male and all of my life I had to be careful of what I what clothes I wear and the environments that I can wear the clothes in. I was taught at an early age that people have misconceptions about black culture and fashion where and as a result, I have to be mindful of how my clothing may increase or decrease my safety.

When in the "hood" I dress like I belong or at the least look like the natives. When out of the "hood" I have to do the same thing and avoid of looking out of place. This also meant, not looking lost, even if I am lost.

If a self-defense course can help people to understand and accept certain realities then that course is worth it.
 

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I am of the (somewhat unpopular I accept) opinion that 100% of your personal safety is your own responsibility
I'm with you on this one. I actually teach self-defense and my family this concept of never putting their safety in the hands of someone else based on "how people should behave."

Here's the reality of the world no matter where we live. If we look like prey, then we will be prey. If people think they can take advantage of us then they will. We must be more responsible for our own safety and stop saying "what people should do and how people should behave."

When the crap hits the fan "100% rapers fault" is no consolation prize and it won't make being raped any easier to deal with by saying it was someone else's fault. Fault is insignificant outside of the legal realm. I often get lectures from my wife about "people shouldn't do stuff like that" I always respond coldly "I don't put my safety in what people shouldn't do."

We know that human's rape each other. This is an unchanging danger, so instead of hoping that someone won't commit the act, people should do all they can to learn how to spot the intent of rape. These days it's especially difficult because of the rape drugs, but things like, watch your drink, don't get so drunk that you are no longer aware, be careful with who you bring into your home, be careful of the homes you go to. Most important be aware of how peers treat other people. Sometimes dangerous behaviors may not be directed to us, but if they are directed to someone else, then we are at risk as well.

While it's impossible for us to be 100% responsible of our own safety, we should try to take control of as much of our safety as possible. If it's something we can control then we should take ownership of being safe. For everything else, it's going to be up to the attacker of how bad he or she injures someone else. In other cases, sometimes neglecting our own safety puts others at risk such as texting and driving, drinking and driving, or anything of the sort.
 

JowGaWolf

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So we peddle the story that taking a 'self defence' seminar is going to empower ( how I hate that word) women to fight back because unless they fight back they aren't really being raped/attacked.
What is it about allowing women to trust their instincts that isn't getting through? What is it about 'all women' must fight that is so attractive here unless it's getting paying customers in through the door. Make no mistake, women's self defence is big business.
A self defence seminar which empowers women, doesn't, it gives them a false sense of security that they can fight their attacker off easily. I've talked to women like that, the Cub leader who takes them after our Rainbows is one. She went on a course, she is now convinced totally that if someone comes at her with a knife she will successfully fight them off, not only that but disarm them to boot. Nothing I say will dissuade her that she is wrong, it worked when she did it with the partner she had so it works right?
There's plenty of common sense precautions we can teach, there's a fair few things we can also instruct to help but we need really to stop this idea that every time you can fight off your attacker, this dulls the mind, stops people coming up with inventive and instinctive moves that will actually help.
Yes some women do fight off their attacker but look at the rape figures, thousands don't, thousands are battered, raped and even murdered as opposed to the few who successfully ward off an attack. In the 12 months to June 2015, police recorded 95,482 sexual offences in England and Wales - an increase of 27,602 - with the numbers of rapes (31,621) and other sexual offences (63,861) at the highest level since the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard in 2002/03. Strangely overall, serious crime in England and Wales was down 8% in the year to June to its lowest level since 1981!

Women have always known how to fight back, they don't need to be told to go for vulnerable points, they don't need to be told how to kick, bite, punch, scratch or anything else but what people need to understand is that whatever the victim decides to do is good, because only the person being attacked knows her strength, the situation, her abilities, her opportunities and she probably knows her attacker as well so will react instinctively in the best way for her.

It is good to read of women who have fought off an attacker and I am pleased they do but it's a rarer thing than you think, I would suggest that while it encourages women to join martial arts classes it also teaches women that they don't have any defences unless they do, it teaches them they are helpless until the martial arts instructor shows them the magic tricks.



Not even slightly funny, in fact it's bang out of order.
Did you see that they are selling t-shirts?

The entire sentence below fails to grasp the purpose of self-defense. Not one word in that sentence or on the page about personal safety. "Without fear of being assaulted." Self-defense is not about minimizing the fear. It's about minimizing the risk and on a good day, avoid it completely.

This is off the page where they sell the t-shirt. This is what I don't like.
"Her battle cry "Not Today Motherf@#!er" is now a rallying call for so many who are standing up for their right to do the things they love, like going for a run, without fear of being assaulted."
 

senseiblackbelt

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However, rape happens in those circumstances very, very rarely when a girl walks through the woods at 2 in the morning. As for the drinking part, the case where the rapist was let off with a few months prison was one where he came across a girl who had passed out and he raped her. he was walking past, saw an unconscious girl and raped her. Yes it was her responsibility to not have passed out but it was 100% his fault he raped her. I have come across more passed out men than I care to think about but no one has raped them, no one did anything to them.
Former Stanford swimmer convicted of rape gets six-month sentence
whats six months going do to him. should be for life
It is never the victims 'fault', that word is inappropriate, you can say they were careless, unthinking or even ignorant etc but to say it's partly their fault is wrong, it is entirely the fault of the rapist who committed a serious crime.
 

Tez3

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Self-defense is not about minimizing the fear. It's about minimizing the risk and on a good day, avoid it completely.

Absolutely. Too many people are buying into the instant 'well I'm safe now' way of thinking however we also have many who are actually making life harder by not taking rape seriously, by not treating it as a criminal offence, by taking the male idea of women being dangerous. When you have prominent men saying they wouldn't not eat alone with a woman or telling us you can't get pregnant if you are raped then it is demeaning women. When sentencing is light because the judge doesn't want to ruin a man's career it send the message that women are there to be used.

Another thing all this 't shirt' stuff is doing is telling women that their attacker is going to be a stranger leaping on them in the dark when there a 99.9% chance their attacker will be known to them, be their partner or even a member of their family. Millions of women go running and will never be assaulted while doing so, however many of them will be assaulted by someone they know and they will be unprepared for that, fighting a complete stranger for your life is different from being assaulted by your partner/husband/friend/family member. Hundreds of thousands of women will also be raped casually as a part of war, it's a very common way of 'marking your territory' in hostile situations, you kill the combatants and rape the men ,women and children.

Rape is still seen in self defence from a male point of view, we are still talking about fighting physically, that women still need to be able to fight....where does it say we never could fight, that we need permission to fight for our lives? Do people think we are stupid? Women have to deal with a great many situations in life men don't, from having their bum patted by a passerby to having their shoulders 'massaged' by a work colleague, from sexual comments to those about her appearance, sexual innuendoes are used by people everyday to women when they shouldn't be. Body shaming, female bodies being used to sell products ( yes I know many women collude with this) and advances made when none were asked for.
I could go on but quite honestly I think it would be pointless, male instructors will always see self defence from a male point of view, from a fighting point of view and I don't think, sadly, this will change though we do have some like Iain Abernethy who do understand.
 

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Absolutely. Too many people are buying into the instant 'well I'm safe now' way of thinking however we also have many who are actually making life harder by not taking rape seriously, by not treating it as a criminal offence, by taking the male idea of women being dangerous. When you have prominent men saying they wouldn't not eat alone with a woman or telling us you can't get pregnant if you are raped then it is demeaning women. When sentencing is light because the judge doesn't want to ruin a man's career it send the message that women are there to be used.

Another thing all this 't shirt' stuff is doing is telling women that their attacker is going to be a stranger leaping on them in the dark when there a 99.9% chance their attacker will be known to them, be their partner or even a member of their family. Millions of women go running and will never be assaulted while doing so, however many of them will be assaulted by someone they know and they will be unprepared for that, fighting a complete stranger for your life is different from being assaulted by your partner/husband/friend/family member. Hundreds of thousands of women will also be raped casually as a part of war, it's a very common way of 'marking your territory' in hostile situations, you kill the combatants and rape the men ,women and children.

Rape is still seen in self defence from a male point of view, we are still talking about fighting physically, that women still need to be able to fight....where does it say we never could fight, that we need permission to fight for our lives? Do people think we are stupid? Women have to deal with a great many situations in life men don't, from having their bum patted by a passerby to having their shoulders 'massaged' by a work colleague, from sexual comments to those about her appearance, sexual innuendoes are used by people everyday to women when they shouldn't be. Body shaming, female bodies being used to sell products ( yes I know many women collude with this) and advances made when none were asked for.
I could go on but quite honestly I think it would be pointless, male instructors will always see self defence from a male point of view, from a fighting point of view and I don't think, sadly, this will change though we do have some like Iain Abernethy who do understand.
Nobody is saying women are stupid. Nobody is saying women need permission to fight. Skill makes that fighting back more effective. That's what "being able to fight" is about. They always have the option (to fight or not to fight). It's better yet if they have the ability to fight well, to improve their odds if they choose to fight. There is nothing in that concept about giving permission, any more than there is when I teach skills to a man.
 

Tez3

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This thread is so frustrating, posters are still telling women how to behave, what effect their clothes have on people etc. it's still from the male perspective, yes I know you are guys but women know better than men what reaction they get to wearing certain clothes. Girls are constantly told from an early age about doing things or not doing things that can lead you into danger.You are still lecturing me, telling me how much better it is to be able to kick punch etc, really? and me having been in martial arts for decades wouldn't know that? Why are you telling me it's better to be able to kick and punch? Why aren't you listening instead?

I didn't say not to fight, I said most women know to fight can be the right thing to do they also know when not to fight. Why can't you accept that not fighting is an option instead of telling me 'oh but if you know how to fight how much better you'd be'? yes I bloody well know that training is better than not training, why can't you accept that not fighting is a viable option if a woman thinks it is, it may not be but you don't actually know that.

As for the lecture on safety being our responsibility, well yes obviously BUT as I pointed out most rapes and sexual assaults are committed by someone known often close to the victim, what then? The random rapist is much rarer than you think, these are the ones women are fighting off because frankly it's easier to. Fighting off your husband/boyfriend/uncle/cousin/friend is much harder for many reasons.
 

JowGaWolf

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male instructors will always see self defence from a male point of view, from a fighting point of view and I don't think, sadly, this will change though we do have some like Iain Abernethy who do understand.
This won't change because men always factor in the possibility of things getting physical. While women and childrend have to be more on guard for sexual predators than adult males do, adult males have to deal with a lot of Alpha Male risks that forces us to play a daily game of "dominance chess. " Most of the times it's settled through non-physical means, but there is a lot of posturing and effort to claim pecking order or a balance. The younger the male is the more likely it is to change into a fight. I'll put it this way. It happens so often that men are able to have these non-physical combats even when they are out with their girlfriend or wife, and she never even picks up what just went on. From a male perspective, stopping an attack before it happens is often done by showing dominance it's subtle but it says "Hey don't mess with me or I'll F-up up and stomp you where you stand." This non-violent posturing is done within the comfort of having confidence in ones ability to fight or physically get the upper hand. Much of this is probably where we naturally get our awareness practice from as teens. This also why some fathers can recognize a guy that's not good for his daughter.

Men also have a perspective that many women don't get a chance to see and that is "How men think" and more specifically "How men think about women." This is why some men seem to be over protective of daughters, sisters, mothers, wives, and girlfriends. We hear the things from guys that women don't hear, so we are more sensitive about what men will do and what they won't do. Much of this comes to light during the late teens through our 30's.

Women have a similar ability and skill set towards other women, which is why a mother can spot a girl that's not right for her son "from a mile away", while the father would be totally clueless.

So when male instructors teach women self-defense it's from the perspective of what she needs to know and be aware of in the context of male mannerisms.
where does it say we never could fight, that we need permission to fight for our lives?
Movies and cultures.

This is from the front page of my school website
"Women have been portrayed throughout the centuries as being helpless and weak. Hollywood, toy companies, and beauty magazines create the belief that women cannot be strong and beautiful at the same time. Parents encourage their daughters to be "princesses" who should marry a "prince." But times are changing as women are showing that they can do what men do. Women are warriors by nature and today more women are embracing their warrior nature through Martial Arts and combat sports. Evidence of this can be seen in Hollywood as we continue to see more movies and T.V. with women being shown as being tough, heroic, and brave."
 

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I think there are two discussions going in here. One that is facing backwards, and how we view ad treat victims of sexual assault. And one that is forward facing, discussing how we might better prevent sexual assaukt from occurring.

Backwards, once assault has occurred, as far as I'm concerned, however the victim survived is the right way in that moment.

Forward facing, I think it can be useful to discuss how to prevent assaults from occurring, from different perspectives, What can men do? What can women do? We all have a role to play as parents, coworkers, friends, and training partners.
 

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I didn't say not to fight, I said most women know to fight can be the right thing to do they also know when not to fight. Why can't you accept that not fighting is an option instead of telling me 'oh but if you know how to fight how much better you'd be'? yes I bloody well know that training is better than not training, why can't you accept that not fighting is a viable option if a woman thinks it is, it may not be but you don't actually know that.

Great post.

You are 100% correct.

That is something we stress in our training....it's easy to sit back a Monday morning QB something, but your perspective is night and day different from the victims perception. When in a position like that you do what you think you must to survive....that is the correct action.

The #1 thing we (men and women) can do to lessen our chance of being a victim is to be more aware of our surroundings and situation.
 

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I didn't say not to fight, I said most women know to fight can be the right thing to do they also know when not to fight. Why can't you accept that not fighting is an option instead of telling me 'oh but if you know how to fight how much better you'd be'? yes I bloody well know that training is better than not training, why can't you accept that not fighting is a viable option if a woman thinks it is, it may not be but you don't actually know that.
Look back at my posts, Tez. I repeatedly said that not fighting is an option. There's no dichotomy between having that option and being able to fight better. Both are valid. Women (and men) have a very valid option of not fighting, and only the individual in the situation can make the choice. I assert that if one chooses to fight, it is best to have some skill at it, to improve the chances of success. Even a highly trained fighter may decide in the moment that not fighting is a better answer, for reasons that need not be explained to nor understood by anyone else.
 

Tez3

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"Women have been portrayed throughout the centuries as being helpless and weak. Hollywood, toy companies, and beauty magazines create the belief that women cannot be strong and beautiful at the same time. Parents encourage their daughters to be "princesses" who should marry a "prince." But times are changing as women are showing that they can do what men do. Women are warriors by nature and today more women are embracing their warrior nature through Martial Arts and combat sports. Evidence of this can be seen in Hollywood as we continue to see more movies and T.V. with women being shown as being tough, heroic, and brave."

Well no. Perhaps in your country, your movies and your culture. We grew up learning about fierce female icons such as Boudicca, Ethelfleda ( an amazing woman), Eleanor of Aquitaine,Emma de Gauder, Countess of Norfolk, Florence Nightingale, Edith Cavell, Queen Elizabeth the First ( and Second), even Queen Victoria, all the women during the First and Second World War and a lot more besides. Celtic and British history is full of strong women many of who were also warriors ( as is European history) There's also the Suffragettes who learnt jujitsu to help defend themselves. I could give you a huge rundown of female notables here who have influenced our life... American movies not so much.
Parents rarely encourage girls to be princesses here, we have to go out and work, we don't have the wherewithal to stay at home and be indolent. I was taught to box by my father at a very early age, this wasn't uncommon. The Judo club in London had female members from the late 1890s.
I believe we have very different influences to those in the USA where religion seems a far larger part of society than it does here. Much of the nonsense about rape, women and sexuality seems to be coming from certain church leaders, who seem to be mired in the idea of females being sexually dangerous to men.
 

Tez3

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Look back at my posts, Tez. I repeatedly said that not fighting is an option. There's no dichotomy between having that option and being able to fight better. Both are valid. Women (and men) have a very valid option of not fighting, and only the individual in the situation can make the choice. I assert that if one chooses to fight, it is best to have some skill at it, to improve the chances of success. Even a highly trained fighter may decide in the moment that not fighting is a better answer, for reasons that need not be explained to nor understood by anyone else.

Yes you have said that but you are also still telling me that learning to fight is better than not learning, you've done it again in this post, why would I need to be told that? Why do you think I don't know that?
 

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We grew up learning about fierce female icons such as Boudicca,

Supposedly part of my family lineage traces back to Boudicca.

Don't know how accurate it is....but I'll take it.;)


On a side note, I'm also kin to the famous bank and train robbing brothers - the Newton Boys.

Yep, Warrior queens and outlaws....:cool:
 

JowGaWolf

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You are still lecturing me, telling me how much better it is to be able to kick punch etc, really? and me having been in martial arts for decades wouldn't know that? Why are you telling me it's better to be able to kick and punch? Why aren't you listening instead?
Not sure who this is directed to, but just in case I'm lumped in that group. I wasn't specifically speaking of you. I always try to use the phrase "some...." so if I gave you that impression, then I apologize.

When I spoke about women wearing clothing, I made sure to put an example of when I do the same to highlight that it's not a "woman thing." Young black men in the U.S. are given the same lecture by parents and friends about being aware that how they dress does matter and does attract certain dangers. People always use the term "Dress for Success" and never have any problem with that. But when it comes to dress to reduce risks, then it becomes less accepted.

A Black Man Wore Different Kinds Of Clothing To See If People Treated Him Differently
http://mashable.com/2015/08/08/black-men-dressing-up-police/#oKn0pbWuvGqH
Black armor
Some black American men are dressing up to deflect negative attention, as a conscious means of survival
.


This is the perspective that I come from when telling women about how they dress affects the behavior of others around them. When a woman walks by in yoga pants, I'm the guy that gets to hear other guys make rude remarks about "what they would do with that." I'm the one who gets to see other men display predatory behavior. The woman doesn't get to see or hear these things because most of this happens behind her back 10ft+ feet away from her.

While ultimately the clothing isn't what is making people rude and predatory, (people like this are this way regardless of who is around), it does trigger behavior. No one is saying that a person can't wear what they want to wear. People, men and women, just have to be aware of the reality that it does affect the behavior of people around you. Unfortunately there are men and women that don't accept this reality and as a result they put themselves in greater risk.

Please don't take this as a Women's only issue or a lecture. While you don't fit into the category, I'm sure some other people who read what we post will. And this is information that could actually help them to better navigate risks throughout their daily lives.
 

Tez3

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This won't change because men always factor in the possibility of things getting physical. While women and childrend have to be more on guard for sexual predators than adult males do, adult males have to deal with a lot of Alpha Male risks that forces us to play a daily game of "dominance chess. " Most of the times it's settled through non-physical means, but there is a lot of posturing and effort to claim pecking order or a balance. The younger the male is the more likely it is to change into a fight. I'll put it this way. It happens so often that men are able to have these non-physical combats even when they are out with their girlfriend or wife, and she never even picks up what just went on. From a male perspective, stopping an attack before it happens is often done by showing dominance it's subtle but it says "Hey don't mess with me or I'll F-up up and stomp you where you stand." This non-violent posturing is done within the comfort of having confidence in ones ability to fight or physically get the upper hand. Much of this is probably where we naturally get our awareness practice from as teens. This also why some fathers can recognize a guy that's not good for his daughter.

I've have worked very closely with men, mostly alphas, since I was18 in situations that were demanding and dangerous as well as in sports, relaxation and practically most other situations you can get. I have watched as well as played the games you are writing about. I know exactly how males work when they are being predatory, when they are vulnerable and when they are being threatening as well as being tender and caring. I know far more than you give me credit for, neither men nor women are so complicated they can't be understood by the people living and working with them.

Men also have a perspective that many women don't get a chance to see and that is "How men think" and more specifically "How men think about women." This is why some men seem to be over protective of daughters, sisters, mothers, wives, and girlfriends. We hear the things from guys that women don't hear, so we are more sensitive about what men will do and what they won't do. Much of this comes to light during the late teens through our 30's.

I suppose you do realise women know men better than you think? After all we brought them up, married them, had affairs with them, hated and loved them. They are our brothers, fathers, uncles and cousins, often they are our best friends, there is no magic side to men that women don't understand. We see them at their worst, best and everything in between including the violence or passive side. So no, it doesn't work like that.

Women have a similar ability and skill set towards other women, which is why a mother can spot a girl that's not right for her son "from a mile away", while the father would be totally clueless.

No, women don't, the girls that aren't right for their sons aren't right because nobody but mother is. Most mothers are actually wrong about who is right for their sons because they can't see past the fact that someone wants to take their son away from them...

So when male instructors teach women self-defense it's from the perspective of what she needs to know and be aware of in the context of male mannerisms.


No, that's not right either, men teach what they think women should know from their perspective which is usually one of the 'protector', which is why most relationships break up after the female is raped, the male believes he should have 'protected' her, feels guilty etc. The other side of course is that many men, specially from a religious background, feel they only have the right to have sex with their female, someone else violating 'their' female makes that female 'dirty' to them. Then there's those men who feel that somehow the women did something that precipitated the attack ie it was her fault. Male instructors teach from their own perspective, I'm afraid this 'oh men know men better' is quite patronising to women. We have fended off more men that you have, we have listened to more 'chat up lines' than you have, 'we have listened to more abuse when we've rejected them' than you have, we've had our bums pinched, breasts ogled, hear more sexist comments, seen more drama than you can imagine so please don't tell me that men know men better than we do. We've seen more men promoted than women, we've fought for the vote, we've fought for equality, all against men who have played every trick in the book against us, we've been married to abusive men, calculating men, nasty men, game playing men than you can imagine. Oh and women talk, they talk to each other, they swap stories, coping strategies and fought, dear god, women have fought so please don't tell me that the self defence lessons are in the women's best interests because the male instructors know best.
 

Steve

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I just hope this doesn't become a thinly veiled, anti America rant. Too late. :(
Well no. Perhaps in your country, your movies and your culture. We grew up learning about fierce female icons such as Boudicca, Ethelfleda ( an amazing woman), Eleanor of Aquitaine,Emma de Gauder, Countess of Norfolk, Florence Nightingale, Edith Cavell, Queen Elizabeth the First ( and Second), even Queen Victoria, all the women during the First and Second World War and a lot more besides. Celtic and British history is full of strong women many of who were also warriors ( as is European history) There's also the Suffragettes who learnt jujitsu to help defend themselves. I could give you a huge rundown of female notables here who have influenced our life... American movies not so much.
Parents rarely encourage girls to be princesses here, we have to go out and work, we don't have the wherewithal to stay at home and be indolent. I was taught to box by my father at a very early age, this wasn't uncommon. The Judo club in London had female members from the late 1890s.
I believe we have very different influences to those in the USA where religion seems a far larger part of society than it does here. Much of the nonsense about rape, women and sexuality seems to be coming from certain church leaders, who seem to be mired in the idea of females being sexually dangerous to men.
 

Tez3

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The woman doesn't get to see or hear these things because most of this happens behind her back 10ft+ feet away from her.

Do you honestly think we don't know? WE DO.
 
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