Secrecy in Kung Fu Today/ arrogance in MA's

Wing Woo Gar

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I don't think so. They just sound similar.

Zen (Chan) is the Buddhist tradition 禅, chán, meaning deep meditation.

Zan tradition 残 is probably more related to ceremonial beating, something that did become popular in Japanese Zen, because of its relation to 無心.

Don't mind the stick hitting you, basically. Ancient Chinese secrets, exposed!

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dvcochran

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I'm skeptical of any stats around communication. The ones most commonly used are badly derived from a very limited study decades ago. In any case, that's certainly not true of written communication, which is becoming a larger part of our lives.
I would have to say it depends on the type of communication.
When conversing such as in negotiations non-verbal communications are extremely important. People can literally give away the farm.
When dealing in technical specifications not so much.
 

Steve

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Yeah. I think it’s worth looking into deeper, if you’re interested. Pretty commonly misunderstood idea. Articles are usually light on references, and where they do reference sources, the sources are usually other articles.

I’m related news, 73.6% of stats on the internet are made up.
 
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Paul Calugaru

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If anything he's showing what real kung fu fighting actually is, and always has been, but he's not the first guy.

There's a whole history of fighters in China doing the same thing. Beating up tired old masters.

Dead horse? More like phoenix reborn from its own ashes, over and over. This is the way.
Agreed... 100%

The skeptic in me always views styles that have sequestered themselves away from the public with squinted eyes.

The people get drunk on these TCMA styles, the more esoteric, the more they believe the hype:

Granted.... people practice TMA for different reasons, Health, Cultural Emersion, Self Defense etc.
Generally one doesn't practice a TMA to compete in combat sports.
However... we are talking Quan fa i.e a martial endeavor.. any and all TCMA IMO should have a serious prowess quality to it.

In TCMA... so many get lost in the weeds.

From esoteric shen fa, to dogma reinforcement of useless skill sets, thrown is a plethora of Quan, to the point they just are dancing,.

Route fixation on form over function. One can hide a lack of prowess

that leads me to say...

Big difference between "simplified" & "distilled"

Is the art distilled, or was it distilled when created? Was the frivolous low % techniques taken out? Forcing the practitioner to stay out of the weeds and focus on function over form?

(considering how inept TCMA is currently looking)

In an attempt to be high brow.... people should think about that the next time they use the term "simplified" to describe a style.

 

Oily Dragon

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I'm skeptical of any stats around communication. The ones most commonly used are badly derived from a very limited study decades ago. In any case, that's certainly not true of written communication, which is becoming a larger part of our lives
Some ancient Chan masters disagreed and realized the importance of body language over endless volumes of scripture.
Agreed... 100%

The skeptic in me always views styles that have sequestered themselves away from the public with squinted eyes.

The people get drunk on these TCMA styles, the more esoteric, the more they believe the hype:

Granted.... people practice TMA for different reasons, Health, Cultural Emersion, Self Defense etc.
Generally one doesn't practice a TMA to compete in combat sports.
However... we are talking Quan fa i.e a martial endeavor.. any and all TCMA IMO should have a serious prowess quality to it.

In TCMA... so many get lost in the weeds.

From esoteric shen fa, to dogma reinforcement of useless skill sets, thrown is a plethora of Quan, to the point they just are dancing,.

Route fixation on form over function. One can hide a lack of prowess

that leads me to say...

Big difference between "simplified" & "distilled"

Is the art distilled, or was it distilled when created? Was the frivolous low % techniques taken out? Forcing the practitioner to stay out of the weeds and focus on function over form?

(considering how inept TCMA is currently looking)

In an attempt to be high brow.... people should think about that the next time they use the term "simplified" to describe a style.
Dr. Zhuang Yuan Ming is probably one of the best sources to check out regarding fact vs. fiction in the traditional Chinese arts. He was a traumatologist and orthopedic physician who created a system called Liangong which is a distillation of numerous daoyin stretching and strength exercises, 58 specific exercises, which he actually tested on people's strength and health in a lab setting.

I have his book right here. No secrets in here, just solid exercise science. And it sacrifices none of the Chinese flavor, because it doesn't have anything to hide.

As far as martial aspects, exercise left to the reader.

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isshinryuronin

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I would have to say it depends on the type of communication.
When conversing such as in negotiations non-verbal communications are extremely important. People can literally give away the farm.
When dealing in technical specifications not so much.
Definitely true.

Technical specs (verbal/written communication) conveys facts. Non-verbal communication conveys an emotional response to facts. Example: You ask the mechanic how much the repair will cost - usually said with few or no physical gestures. You are asking for facts. The mechanic replies "$1195" - no gestures as he is conveying fact. "$1195 !" you exclaim as your eyes bug out, your face gets red and your arms fly up - emotional response (real or feigned) to facts.

Verbal communication is generally planned and deliberate. Non-verbal is instinctive and hard to control without practice, as poker players well know. Psychopaths, sociopaths and perhaps some autistic people may be good at verbal communication, but lack instinctual, emotional non-verbal communication skills. They have to learn and practice to mimic gestures and facial expressions to fit in.

Texting removes the critical non-verbal (including voice inflection) aspects of communication. Yes, there are emojis, but like the written word, are deliberate. No way to tell if an accurate representation of true intent. This is why when coming across a stranger on a dark street, non-verbal clues are most important in evaluating his true intent.

I think these terms - verbal and non-verbal - are misleading. Voice inflection is verbal (or at least auditory) yet reflects emotion, so is more related to non-verbal communication, IMO, reinforced by the fact that heavily inflicted voice is often accompanied by physical non-verbal gestures.

Very interesting subject. I studied animal communication for a year, but for this post's purpose, I have reached the limit of my knowledge and ability to appear intelligent.
 

clfsean

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Like I say opinions vary. I have workout at a LOT of schools. Most MDK schools are not as you describe.
Any chance one was an offshoot of the other in your situation. What was the MDK lineage?
All I know is our school/club was started by Chung Hung Shik in the 70's in Marietta. His school was in Atlanta. He came to teach up there for a while and turned it over to a senior student there after a while, which was before I got there.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Some ancient Chan masters disagreed and realized the importance of body language over endless volumes of scripture.
That's a false dichotomy (or straw man - maybe both).

Here's how I explain it when I'm doing communications training and someone brings up the worn-out (and incorrect) percentages (55/38/7). Firstly, to even understand those percentages, you'd need to know where they came from. I won't get into that (I do in training), but suffice it to say, it's a VERY limited basic study, which cannot be generalized much beyond its orginal scope. But here's how you can prove communication isn't those percentages:
  1. Tell a story without words, communicating exact details.
  2. Tell the same story in only words, communicating as much emotion as possible.
  3. Tell the same story with the audience's back turned (no body language) and in a complete monotone (no audible cues to emotion).
2 is much easier than 1. We get it in books all the time.

That's not to say the nonverbal (including voice inflection) isn't important (3 is difficult, at best). @dvcochran mentioned earlier how much nonverbal can be a detriment (though that same negotiation would be all but impossible without the verbal, so we still can't place the nonverbal higher). And nonverbal - as well as inflection - exists even when we use text. We simply infer it from the text, rather than reading it directly from a person. This is why text communication so easily leads to misunderstanding of intent.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I think these terms - verbal and non-verbal - are misleading. Voice inflection is verbal (or at least auditory) yet reflects emotion, so is more related to non-verbal communication, IMO, reinforced by the fact that heavily inflicted voice is often accompanied by physical non-verbal gestures.
When we talk about these in communication training, I distinguish verbal as what it technically is: the words. Non-verbal includes auditory cues (inflection, pacing, etc.) and visual cues (body language).
 

dvcochran

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When we talk about these in communication training, I distinguish verbal as what it technically is: the words. Non-verbal includes auditory cues (inflection, pacing, etc.) and visual cues (body language).
Are you involved in interrogation training as well?

I should have added this to my previous post. I went to two interrogating training classes back in my LEO days. The first I would say was basic awareness training and recognizing common sense visual cues.
The second class went much deeper into facial recognitions, body ticks, posture, and physical changes.
It was a real eye opener for me.

This reminds me of why I got ot of LE. I realized I had gotten to a point where I thought everyone was guilty of something. If I met you for the first time I was immediately sizing you up to figure out what you had done wrong. I did not like that within myself.
I already had/have a natural, driven tendency to 'figure things out'. A problem solver to a fault so to speak.
 

dvcochran

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All I know is our school/club was started by Chung Hung Shik in the 70's in Marietta. His school was in Atlanta. He came to teach up there for a while and turned it over to a senior student there after a while, which was before I got there.
We are fairly close to each other. I have been to many tournaments in GA but cannot say I recognize your instructor's name. Is he MDK or Shotokan?
I do know a GM Chung in Birmingham.
 

Oily Dragon

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That's a false dichotomy (or straw man - maybe both).

Here's how I explain it when I'm doing communications training and someone brings up the worn-out (and incorrect) percentages (55/38/7). Firstly, to even understand those percentages, you'd need to know where they came from. I won't get into that (I do in training), but suffice it to say, it's a VERY limited basic study, which cannot be generalized much beyond its orginal scope. But here's how you can prove communication isn't those percentages:
  1. Tell a story without words, communicating exact details.
  2. Tell the same story in only words, communicating as much emotion as possible.
  3. Tell the same story with the audience's back turned (no body language) and in a complete monotone (no audible cues to emotion).
2 is much easier than 1. We get it in books all the time.

That's not to say the nonverbal (including voice inflection) isn't important (3 is difficult, at best). @dvcochran mentioned earlier how much nonverbal can be a detriment (though that same negotiation would be all but impossible without the verbal, so we still can't place the nonverbal higher). And nonverbal - as well as inflection - exists even when we use text. We simply infer it from the text, rather than reading it directly from a person. This is why text communication so easily leads to misunderstanding of intent.
See? You lost me about a sentence in. Too wordy and confusing, your rambling thoughts. You could have made this point with a single sentence, or none at all. You didn't have time to write a short letter, so you wrote a long one instead.

The Flower Sermon required no words. I don't need to write even a short essay on it. I could, but I won't. Talk about a kung fu secret.
 

Oily Dragon

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When we talk about these in communication training, I distinguish verbal as what it technically is: the words. Non-verbal includes auditory cues (inflection, pacing, etc.) and visual cues (body language).
Body language involves every sense, and it can transmit right through the keyboard and screen. You said it yourself.

Proof. I could have posted yet another lotus, but you got a puppy for the holidays.

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Oily Dragon

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It's kind of like making a proper noren ramen.

The right dashi is important, but without fresh dry kombu you're not going to get the right flavor.

Once you have the right flavor, you can send out your noren ramen ninjas to fan out your killer broth in total secrecy.

If none of this makes any sense, it's because I wrote it down rather than drew a decent picture of what I meant. Because I stink at drawing, the only way someone else will understand me is through their own experience with noren ramen.
 

Steve

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See? You lost me about a sentence in. Too wordy and confusing, your rambling thoughts. You could have made this point with a single sentence, or none at all. You didn't have time to write a short letter, so you wrote a long one instead.

The Flower Sermon required no words. I don't need to write even a short essay on it. I could, but I won't. Talk about a kung fu secret.
The abridged version of what Gerry explained is that non-verbal communication only is more likely to be misinterpreted than interpreted correctly. This is particularly true when someone's non-verbal cues are out of sync with your own (e.g., someone on the autistic spectrum, someone from a different culture, etc). Bottom line is, if you don't have a baseline with that specific person, you should not rely too heavily on any non-verbal cues you glean from them.

Where the studies make sense are when the verbal statement is either consistent with or at odds with the non-verbal statement. Simply put, if I say something positive to you, but with negative body language, people will tend to trust the non-verbal over what was said. Whether they're correctly interpreted or not is another story. That's pretty much it.
 

Oily Dragon

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The abridged version of what Gerry explained is that non-verbal communication only is more likely to be misinterpreted than interpreted correctly. This is particularly true when someone's non-verbal cues are out of sync with your own (e.g., someone on the autistic spectrum, someone from a different culture, etc). Bottom line is, if you don't have a baseline with that specific person, you should not rely too heavily on any non-verbal cues you glean from them.

Where the studies make sense are when the verbal statement is either consistent with or at odds with the non-verbal statement. Simply put, if I say something positive to you, but with negative body language, people will tend to trust the non-verbal over what was said. That's pretty much it.
I thought everyone loves puppies. I didn't post a cat for obvious reasons. Cats offend some people.
 

clfsean

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We are fairly close to each other. I have been to many tournaments in GA but cannot say I recognize your instructor's name. Is he MDK or Shotokan?
I do know a GM Chung in Birmingham.
Chung was MDK TKD from Korea, FOB. His school closed sometime in the late 80's or early 90's as Atlanta blew up and rent rates on Piedmont tore through the roof. I'm guessing he's probably passed by now. Stan passed away 15 years or more ago. He was old when I studied with him as a kid through my teen years.

My grand-teacher in CMA also came from MDK TKD up in NYC and we talk about the same things content wise all the time concerning our experiences with it & CMA is not part of those conversations.
 
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