The last 2 years we have seen an influx of students from traditional/SD TKD schools attempt to train with us after the US Open. Some of them have talent but they almost never have the Cardio to last one class. We have had one or two last a week but none ever stay longer. They always leave. I hope with a great appreciation for the hard work it takes to compete at a high level in Sport TKD.
SD/Traditional TKD and Sport Training!!!
- Thread starter Gorilla
- Start date
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Gorilla, you must be bored and trying to get a rise out of some people.
ATC
Senior Master
I understand what you are saying Gorilla.
Even our students from our SD and regular classes can't hang with our comp team classes when it comes to endurance. We had to make two comp team classes due to the kids in the original comp team being so far advanced endurance and skills wise, that you could not just simply add a new student into the class. They just could not handle it. They would eventually quit.
So now when new students join the comp team they join what we call the pre comp team class. Then after some time they move up to the comp team class. This pre comp class is really toned down endurance wise and ramps up. Seem to be working as we started with 8 students and we still have the same 8 students 8 weeks later.
ATC
Senior Master
I just think he was trying to show that even though what many are doing is only a sport it still takes a high level of endurance and training to do the sport, explaining his last sentance.
It may be the period that should have been a comma that threw you off.
d1jinx
Master Black Belt
while training in general has always been physical, competition has always been heavily dependent on cardio. The MAIN reason I stopped competing is I started loosing because I got tired, not becasue the other person was the better fighter. But I found as I got older, I had to work even harder to maintain enough stamina to compete at the level I had before. And because I have a career that does not allow for the daily conditioning needed, I just couldn't keep up.
Oh how I wish , I could spend the days just training and working out. Why cant i be rich and not have to work for money. Why cant my job be exercising myself?????????????????
even if i could spare 2 hours in the morning, and 2 hours in the evening.... I would be better.
Life sux.
Oh how I wish , I could spend the days just training and working out. Why cant i be rich and not have to work for money. Why cant my job be exercising myself?????????????????
even if i could spare 2 hours in the morning, and 2 hours in the evening.... I would be better.
Life sux.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
No one disputes that. The way in which Gorilla chose to say it seemed like it was a gratuitous dig to me though. Not sure what the purpose of it was other than to rekindle the sport vs. traditional wars around here which I would think most of us are tired of.
Look at it this way. If I or someone else wrote a post about how some sport guys came to our class and couldn't even last a week because they didn't know how to fall, didn't know how to punch a makiwara, didn't understand form applications beyond a child's conception.... wouldn't some take it as a dig?
I've got nothing against Gorilla or anyone else here. Just tired of the silly bickering and would suggest to all that some moderation in thought and writing would go a far ways to keeping a peaceful TKD forum as Bob suggested with that sticky post at the top.
Another sport vs. art thread?
Please. We have like five hundred of these things. You have been in on enough of them recently that you cannot say that you didn't know.
Fine.
Hard training in preparation for a timed athletic event that is 99% mid to high kicking techniques and may require to fight in several matches will almost always produce superior cardio results to training for a violent encounter.
Hard training in preparation for a violent encounter that is mostly hands and mental fortitude will almost always produce superior skills specifically geared towards ending the fight quickly (either via escape or incapacitation of the attacker) as compared for training for a timed athletic event.
So long as your attacker is unarmed and alone, either student will likely fare well in a violent encounter, though if the former isn't careful with those high kicks, he or she may find themselves in serious trouble if the leg is grabbed.
If the attacker has a knife, my money is on the latter, but in all seriousness, the best defense against a lone guy with a knife is distance. Thus the track star is superior to both.
If the attacker has buddies, chances are that both are equally equipped (or ill equipped) unless the latter has involved a solid amount of hard training against multiple opponents.
If the attacker and buddies have knives, both are equally screwed.
If the attacker is alone and has a gun, both are equally screwed.
If you want to do well in tournaments, train your backside off and get good at it.
If you want to survive violent encounters, train your backside off and most importantly, develop your common sense, awareness and verbal skills. They will serve you far better than either athletic prowess or SD techniques.
One last note: the guy or gal who knows his or her personal limitations, who exercises common sense, and acts accordingly will fare the best overall. Best of all, no martial training is really needed for that.
Daniel
Please. We have like five hundred of these things. You have been in on enough of them recently that you cannot say that you didn't know.
Fine.
Hard training in preparation for a timed athletic event that is 99% mid to high kicking techniques and may require to fight in several matches will almost always produce superior cardio results to training for a violent encounter.
Hard training in preparation for a violent encounter that is mostly hands and mental fortitude will almost always produce superior skills specifically geared towards ending the fight quickly (either via escape or incapacitation of the attacker) as compared for training for a timed athletic event.
So long as your attacker is unarmed and alone, either student will likely fare well in a violent encounter, though if the former isn't careful with those high kicks, he or she may find themselves in serious trouble if the leg is grabbed.
If the attacker has a knife, my money is on the latter, but in all seriousness, the best defense against a lone guy with a knife is distance. Thus the track star is superior to both.
If the attacker has buddies, chances are that both are equally equipped (or ill equipped) unless the latter has involved a solid amount of hard training against multiple opponents.
If the attacker and buddies have knives, both are equally screwed.
If the attacker is alone and has a gun, both are equally screwed.
If you want to do well in tournaments, train your backside off and get good at it.
If you want to survive violent encounters, train your backside off and most importantly, develop your common sense, awareness and verbal skills. They will serve you far better than either athletic prowess or SD techniques.
One last note: the guy or gal who knows his or her personal limitations, who exercises common sense, and acts accordingly will fare the best overall. Best of all, no martial training is really needed for that.
Daniel
StudentCarl
3rd Black Belt
Funny you should toss this out.
In the more hardcore self-defense forums one common discussion is the issue of "attributes vs. skills"--whether one's physical attibutes are more decisive than skills in deciding real fights where there aren't weight classes and equal initiative.
I think some traditional martial arts students overrate the value of technical skills and underrate fitness, particularly endurance. Those who have been in real fights lasting more than 30 seconds can get completely gassed. Lack of endurance destroys agility, quickness and eventually will.
"Fatigue makes cowards of us all."
I also think that those who lack experience with the full-contact nature of our sport have less experience with fighting hurt, an essential part of developing mental toughness.
Carl
In the more hardcore self-defense forums one common discussion is the issue of "attributes vs. skills"--whether one's physical attibutes are more decisive than skills in deciding real fights where there aren't weight classes and equal initiative.
I think some traditional martial arts students overrate the value of technical skills and underrate fitness, particularly endurance. Those who have been in real fights lasting more than 30 seconds can get completely gassed. Lack of endurance destroys agility, quickness and eventually will.
"Fatigue makes cowards of us all."
I also think that those who lack experience with the full-contact nature of our sport have less experience with fighting hurt, an essential part of developing mental toughness.
Carl
dancingalone
Grandmaster
I hope you don't mean to suggest that Olympic style sparring is the only full-contact type of sparring available in TKD. People from my TKD lineage (Rhee/Steen) would decidedly disagree.
Not to point out the obvious, but of course they can't.
Comp teams, good ones at least, train as much in cardio as they do in technique. It all has to do with how much training you do and what you are training in. Spend three hours a day four days a week training in competition techniques and cardio and you should be better than the guys transitioning in. If you are not, then you're doing something wrong.
There is a huge difference between training for an almost all kicking athletic event and training to handle yourself in case you're mugged. Different tools for different jobs.
Daniel
StudentCarl
3rd Black Belt
I like the diversity of opinion here. Endurance and toughness are built over time. I hope that the guests at Gorilla's school were welcomed, treated with respect, and encouraged to return. I hope that Gorilla's master encourages further sharing with the other school (perhaps a visit there), as the other master likely has new teachings to offer Gorilla and his peers. These other students are to be praised for taking the risk to try something new for them.
Please share more from the perspective of the hardcore traditional training perspective--I'd like to know what I might be missing so I can learn more about it and perhaps incorporate more of it into my training.
I think we're all limited in some ways because we are like kids in families--what we learn depends on who brings us up, our small town or our neighborhood. It's great that we all have identity, but maturing requires us to see how we are common with others, not just the differences.
Carl
I realize that it is full contact, but really, it isn't. Your padded up in all legal areas of contact and hand techniques, which are generally faster and harder to defend against, are practically nonexistent and illegal to the head or face. Want real full contact? Try Kyokushin.
Or better yet,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrD5WadBtUI&feature=related
I agree that mental toughness is definitely a quality in competitive athletes, at least as it relates to competition. Likely, it overlaps many areas outside of competition as well.
I also 100% agree with you regarding the lack of emphasis on fitness, and this is not confined to traditional schools.
Having done both "our sport" and been in real fights, I will say hands down that there is little, if any correlation between WTF sport taekwondo and a fight.
Daniel
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StudentCarl
3rd Black Belt
No, not at all. I see full contact training as essential to the development of a martial artist. There is challenge to do it in a way that minimizes major damage so the cost isn't prohibitive.
Carl
StudentCarl
3rd Black Belt
I would bet if your top students came to my Hapkido class and instead of easing them in I went full throttle on them they would run away as well.
On the other hand I would not do that as I know they need to ramp up to the level of training at what I am doing.
You may not mean it to sound this way but it sure paints a bad picture about your program.
My sons TKD school took 13 meddles in Texas. They have some top players yet offer an open program and a great learning environment. I am proud to teach there and have my son be part of their team.
Dave O.
On the other hand I would not do that as I know they need to ramp up to the level of training at what I am doing.
You may not mean it to sound this way but it sure paints a bad picture about your program.
My sons TKD school took 13 meddles in Texas. They have some top players yet offer an open program and a great learning environment. I am proud to teach there and have my son be part of their team.
Dave O.
Yea...the BBS has not been interesting as of late!
The people who come to our Comp Team to train because they decided to watch @ the US Open and now think that they can do Sport TKD @ a High Level get a dose of reality.
I love self defense and traditional Martial Arts and so do all the people that we train with! I have never heard a Sport TKD person say a bad word about self def.
And for an update one of the New Students came back for his second week. Our Master did an hour of Self Defense Training. The team really likes it. A good change of pace!
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Manny
Senior Master
ATC
Senior Master
Yes that is exactly what I was saying. That is why we started the pre comp team, so new members could transition in. Had to open the dojan a couple of hours earlier for this but it sure helped.
Edit: New members = new competing members not new students. New members on the comp team are people we hand pick that we feel are pretty good and we think they would make good competitors. Even a non competing TKD student has some level of conditioning, just not at the same level as those that compete.
You'd have to dig through the threads here. There was some pretty strong mudslinging in both directions from a small group of posters.
The biggest gripe that most traditional folks have with the WTF sport is that it does not really resemble any form of taekwondo. It is not that it is bad, but that it really is not, on a technical level, related to Kukki TKD any longer. It is so specialized and so different that it really deserves its own name.
Not a dig at the sport; I happen to enjoy it.
Daniel
