Why not TKD for SD

[terryl965]

In a couple of other threads people have ask why is TKD not effective in self defense:
My theorey is simple most people are talking about Olympic TKD which is not a smart way to handle Self Defense at all and for the most part they are right with these example's which they have given. I'm willing to try and answer all question about TKD and self defense as long as it does not turn out to be a my art better than yours.
TKD self defense is as dynamic as most other art forms, we have joint locks and maniulation as other arts, the ground work is pretty weak compared to grappling, but the kicks are so more powerful when use properly for self defense, I do relize the poomse does not reflect this in there movements, one learns the SD aspect of TKD from usally the old timers speaking in like me, most young instructor only know the sport. No Offense to you young guys. All question will be answered as possible and from my own experiences and the way I was tought over the years which may differ from others.
Terry Lee Stoker

 

[FearlessFreep]

I dunno...I'm a 36 yo relative newbie learning from a 28 yo 2nd Dan and he puts a lot of emphasis on self-defense and sorta seems to approach sparring and tournaments as something that has to be done as part of the TKD curriculum but not as things to be focused on.

 

[terryl965]

Fearless glad to hear your school is teaching SD, but alot of Sport TKD does not and if you read alot of post they are always trying to compare TKD with other SD arts. Have a nice day.

Terry

 

[Blindside]

TKD self defense is as dynamic as most other art forms, we have joint locks and maniulation as other arts, the ground work is pretty weak compared to grappling, but the kicks are so more powerful when use properly for self defense, I do relize the poomse does not reflect this in there movements, one learns the SD aspect of TKD from usally the old timers speaking in like me,

If the poomse do not reflect SD movements in their movements, then what is the method of transmittal between instructor and student? In kenpo (an example, it is what I know) there are fixed SD techniques that represent a minimum cirriculum of concepts that address SD issues. Some of these are addressed in forms, but the techniques are the major method of SD concept transmission. Is there something equivelent to this in TKD or how do you maintain a curricullum over time if there is no fixed requirement?

Thanks,

Lamont

 

[FearlessFreep]

Yeah, I know. I think it's a bit silly actually. I mean, is Olympic wrestling good self-defense? How about boxing? I think to judge an art by what it's competitive form is doesn't really do a lot of good. I also think people should know better than to do that. The competitive forms intentionally pick certain ways of 'winning' and arrange it in a way to be safe and that's not really what a martial art is all about so of course the competitve form is going to look silly as a means of self-defense.

The only thing that really concerns me is people who only learn sparring and think they are learning how to fight and defend themselves. If people want to learn the sport for the sake of the sport, that's cool, I mean, nobody sits around and argues the comparative self-defense capabilities of football versue baseball..they are just sports. *Maybe* you're training in one will make you stronger, faster, and better able to react well under pressure, and that could make a difference in a fight, but it doesn't train you to fight. I think to think that it does is dangerous, and to teach people that it does it irresponsible.

Sorry...I was going to tie this back to your original point and I realized I didn't know *what* your point was so I re-read your first post and realized I'd gotten off track.

I guess from a TKD SD perspective, one concern I would have is throwing a kick and having it trapped 1) How do I avoid it? 2) What can I do when it does?

 

[TX_BB]

I guess from a TKD SD perspective, one concern I would have is throwing a kick and having it trapped 1) How do I avoid it? 2) What can I do when it does?

1) Break things you hit and rechamber only real seasoned fighters can take a couple of broken ribs and remember to trap. Why avoid it? You should be able to take advantage of the fact the trapper normally has to keep his body position constant and pins one of his limbs also. This leaves him with only one limb to be an affective weapon (two feet keeping constant body position and one limb tying up the trapped limb) I find this an advantage since I normally will have weight and strength advantage and I now control momentum of both bodies.
2) Charge and use your upper body strikes (punches, hand techniques, elbow smashes...) If you break clean, you should be able to take him out with a hard rear side sweep.

 

[Shu2jack]

1) Break things you hit and rechamber only real seasoned fighters can take a couple of broken ribs and remember to trap. Why avoid it? You should be able to take advantage of the fact the trapper normally has to keep his body position constant and pins one of his limbs also. This leaves him with only one limb to be an affective weapon (two feet keeping constant body position and one limb tying up the trapped limb) I find this an advantage since I normally will have weight and strength advantage and I now control momentum of both bodies.
2) Charge and use your upper body strikes (punches, hand techniques, elbow smashes...) If you break clean, you should be able to take him out with a hard rear side sweep.

Assuming you don't break my ribs (maybe I jammed the kicked before it reached full power or due to the angle of kick/the angle it hit me it didn't break anything) and I trap your leg, how would I be at a disadvantage? You are on one leg compared to my two. I can use my hips and entire body against your leg strength and I have a more stable base. Your punches will lack power because you are in a "hopping to just barely keep your balance" stance.

No offense, I just don't see where you are coming from on this.

 

[terryl965]

I guess from a TKD SD perspective, one concern I would have is throwing a kick and having it trapped 1) How do I avoid it? 2) What can I do when it does?Today 06:43 PM



Well first off Tx BB is right about breaking or cracking ribs and what he had to say in his point of view.

Now mine first off you would not be throwing the kick to the chest or stomach area in SD efforts, the kick would be lower towards the knees or a leg sweep to take your opponent to the ground where he is at your advantage to your kick to his vulanble area's. but let's say they do grab your leg and hook you fine, the attacker is also caught with the dis advantage of not knowing your next move wish in my case would be if right leg is hooked to palm strike to the lower part of the nose to the back of the head driving him to the ground. My main problem is most people only think the sport aspect they forget TKD has hand strikes as well.

 

[GRIM]

I just want to say thanks for sharing the knowledge. I'm one of thosse people who through ignorance discounts TKD as being SD oriented. Genreally this might be true in the fast food schools but no reason to bias.

Out of curiousity where does TKD take it'd joint locks from? In kenpo ours are from the Kali lock flows. I was thinking maybe a hapkido connection?

With Respect,
GRIM

 

[MJS]

The saying, "You fight like you train" comes to mind here. Can TKD be effective in a SD situation? Sure. Can boxing? Sure. How are things being applied though? Is there aliveness in the training? Are things being done in a realistic fashion or a static fashion? Are all areas being covered?

The list can go on and on and on, but those are IMO important things to ask yourself, depending on how you want to gear your training.

Mike

 

[Spookey]

Dear All,


My addition to the current route of the thread...

Along the lines of defenses against a trapped kick there are so numerous angles and types of traps against numerous kicks etc...so addressing this is fairly circumstance based.

Hand techniques to the face, eyes, and or collar bone are great ideas when the enemy is in range.

Also, as previously stated (and a bit in addition) any strike will be most effective against a "vital target" however if you cannot strike one of the more prefered targets hit what is in front of you. Shoulder and arm blocking the ribs...kick then in the shoulder, elbow, or arm. The same applies to the legs...kicking directly into the femur is a great possibility to cause damage and injury to your opponent.

Also you should train to strike to the different levels of the body. This allows the shortest amount of travel time between the weapon and the target. Punch to the head and body, kick to the legs and groin. If they are busy trying to cover their head from your blows it is far less likely they will drop them to catch your foot as it smashed into their ribs.

If SD is your goal train as such...remember each phase of training can be viewed as merely a fraction of the whole. Patterns allow you to practice new movements with precision while learning balance and posture, step sparring allows you to practice those same techniques for appropriate feel and distancing, and free sparring gives another feel for timing and motion. These are all tools of training. Put them together, throw out all "rules" and "chivalry" and it can come together nicely.

Determine your reasoning for training and train accordingly!

TAEKWON!
SPooKeY

 

[Blindside]

Out of curiousity where does TKD take it'd joint locks from? In kenpo ours are from the Kali lock flows.

I suspect you are wrong on this Grim, I would look more toward the jujutsu side of kenpo history for the joint locks.

And now back to our thread....

Lamont

 

[Han-Mi]

If the poomse do not reflect SD movements in their movements, then what is the method of transmittal between instructor and student? In kenpo (an example, it is what I know) there are fixed SD techniques that represent a minimum cirriculum of concepts that address SD issues. Some of these are addressed in forms, but the techniques are the major method of SD concept transmission. Is there something equivelent to this in TKD or how do you maintain a curricullum over time if there is no fixed requirement?

Thanks,

Lamont

At our school we do 1-steps or 1-step sparring. These are basic self defense for specified situations, much more SD oriented than forms. I believe that most schools have them, as I did run across some in a book I read once that went through a lot of TKD info. The ones in the book were much more brutal than the ones we practice until we reach red belt or so.


Also, I've had my leg caught, and I agree that a hand tech to the head is the best way to get the focus off your leg and onto their defense. Unless the person is very quick about it, chances are you can WAK them in the head several times befor they have the chance to use there ONE hand to defend aginst both of yours.

 

[terryl965]

We also do one and two step sparring just not with everybody. And again most of you sre right you will be effective if you practice that way and the legs and grion are your best moves in SD, I have always been a believer that a good shot to these area will disrupt your opponant rythem enough for the TKD pragtintiour to take advantage of.

Terry

 

[GRIM]

I suspect you are wrong on this Grim, I would look more toward the jujutsu side of kenpo history for the joint locks.

And now back to our thread....

Lamont

Three things if I may,
1. Good job taking a quote out of context sense the original question pretained to TKD and hapikido and, their if any relation on joint lock training.

2. sorry ahead of time this dosen't relate to the thread but, my senior insructor in Kenpo trained under Dan Inasanto in kali and the lock flows we do are called KALI LOCK FLOWS my MA history buff friend.

3. I only mentioned the Kenpo combined with Kali reference as an example of how the useing one style to augment another. Sense hakidio and TKD come from the same place just curios if there was something there.

 

[Blindside]

Grim, check your PM.

Lamont

 

[Marginal]

Out of curiousity where does TKD take it'd joint locks from? In kenpo ours are from the Kali lock flows. I was thinking maybe a hapkido connection?

As far as I can tell, it's largely a mix. Some stuff's borrowed Hapkido, some from Judo, or whatever else an instuctor happens to pick up. A lot of the other TKDists I've known from outside the USTF were all familiar with Combat Hapkido, but I've never seen a standardized self-defense approach outside of the requirements list which is mainly a list of things to counter or apply rather than specific holds or techniques. (For example, a joint lock vs a wrist grab will be requested.) How that's accomplished will usually vary sharply from one school to another...

 

[terryl965]

Mozt of the joint locks I learned came from my father and he tought it in the military, of course USMC old school back in war war 2 and Korea, I know it was tought by Gin Kim from combat Hapkido. Just use what I've learned over all these years.

Terry

 

[FearlessFreep]

One thing I've been working on and thinking about over the last few weeks is trying to think through scenarios of counters to basic attacks. Trying to keep things simple so I can respond well under stress and since I do TKD forms, blocking, kicking and striking drills, and sparring, trying to use motions that I practice a lot. Mostly thinking of likely ways someone is going to attack me and how I would block and counter-strike. A lot of using blocks to either block the attack or redirect it and then thinking of what position I would likely be in and they would likely be in and what kind of strike (mostly punches to the body, elbows to the face, sidekicks and push kicks or front kicks)..thinking through the foot work of how the defense would set up the body positioning for the counter-strike. And then just practice, practice, practice...especially against a bag to make sure my strike's are coming with power.

 

[pnoy_kickfighter]

In a couple of other threads people have ask why is TKD not effective in self defense:
My theorey is simple most people are talking about Olympic TKD which is not a smart way to handle Self Defense at all and for the most part they are right with these example's which they have given. I'm willing to try and answer all question about TKD and self defense as long as it does not turn out to be a my art better than yours.
TKD self defense is as dynamic as most other art forms, we have joint locks and maniulation as other arts, the ground work is pretty weak compared to grappling, but the kicks are so more powerful when use properly for self defense, I do relize the poomse does not reflect this in there movements, one learns the SD aspect of TKD from usally the old timers speaking in like me, most young instructor only know the sport. No Offense to you young guys. All question will be answered as possible and from my own experiences and the way I was tought over the years which may differ from others.
Terry Lee Stoker

Well I think sport TKD doesnt work in self defense but mainly the martial art TKD works. It's just how you train