Ryu

[Matt Stone]

While admittedly this is a different time and place from the time honored tradition of "dojo busting," we have to remember that there is a public face and a private face to the things we do...

Publicly, we should denounce such behaviors. Publicly, we could sue or be sued for nearly anything we do in the school, whether we have signed a waiver or not.

Privately, however, the tradtion continues. Privately, the tradition should continue. It is an inbuilt check and balance to ensure folks don't go setting up shop in a mini-mall without some form of recourse should they turn out to be blatant frauds who endanger their students and the public with their false instruction.

Admittedly, when challenging such a teacher, it shouldn't be done with a "hey, buddy, I'm gonna clean your clock" attitude. It should be done (somewhat) respectfully. More along the lines of "what you teach is questionable at best - it is time to prove the validity of what you are selling" or words to that effect.

It shouldn't be taken personally by either side. The side being challenged should look at it as an opportunity to earn respect the hard way, the way that it cannot be questioned. The side challenging it should approach it impersonally, and with no sense of vengeance but a sense of equanimity.

The two engage. The two disengage. Should the challenger be the victor, the proof of the loser's skills stand on record. Should the challenger be defeated, the challenged's skill stand on record, and the challenger should apologize and move on.

There are right ways and wrong ways to do darn near everything. And so it is with this.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

Yiliquan 1,

The way you have put it is different than the way I initially took this topic. Thank you for clarifying it.

:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

There used to be an actual formal method(s) of doing it.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Yiliquan 1,

The way you have put it is different than the way I initially took this topic. Thank you for clarifying it.

:asian:

A guy walks into my class. He stands with his arms crossed, leaning back on one leg, sneering and smirking toward my students and me. He walks purposefully toward me, pokes a finger into my chest, and proclaims loudly "I think Yiliquan sucks! I could take you any day of the week."

This guy is nothing more than a bully, an ***, and the next ER trauma patient...

A guy walks into my class, stands unobtrusively in the rear of the waiting area, and watches the class. Toward the end of class, he quietly motions toward me to speak with him privately. I do so. He tells me "you are new in the area, and your qualifications and reputation fail to precede you. I would like to test your skills."

This guy deserves a chance to prove both his and my skills by allowing a contest to occur.

The first guy, I hospitalize to teach him a lesson. The second guy, I give my best within limits agreed upon beforehand.

There is a right way to dojo bust, even when the school you are busting is a well known internet fraud/cult (a la Chung Moo Doe or the like).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

That would be very appropriate. I've run into both types.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
No, I am correct despite your juvenille quip. A liabiltiy waiver only goes so far, that is why there is liability insurance. And the current topic was someone from outside the school comming in to 'bust' the school. "Yeah Mr. tough guy I'll fight you...but first you gotta sign my school's liability waiver" :shrug:

I am surprised that as instructor, you have failed to require any participants in your dojang/dojo/whatever, to sign the standard liability waiver.

Not legal advice, it's common sence. In this country you can be sued for just about anything. And Jury's are a funny thing when awarding settlements.

No one has yet...why don't you be the first?

Sure...if you approach actually accomplished this cause. :shrug: As it is it doesn't, it just gives an excuse to let the testosterone fly. Abilities vary from style to style and person to person. One person 'besting' another in combat doesn't prove fraud it proves 'any given day'.

And again defeats the purpose of training in the martial arts...defense only.

You seem intend on keeping old arguements alive and bringing into the conversation cute little shots at me. Are you that insecure with yourself. You got a problem then act like a man and email it to me. Time for these discussions to return to the topic at hand.

Your welcome at any time to stop by my school and discuss it face to face instead of from the safety of your computer keyboard. I'll be more than happy to email you directions and the times I'm there to discuss any problem you may have personally. Is this the dreaded 'internet challenge'...nope. Just making myself accessable to you should you desire to come by and 'bust me'. Since you can't leave it alone.....

I've earned everything I have. Don't like it....to bad and so sad. Try and do something about it :soapbox:

How typical. The same tactic that used on attacking Ryushikan previously. But in accordance with the wishes of the administrators of Martial Talk.com , I would not respond to such outburst. To comment on MartialTalk.com regarding whether I would engage on physical confrontation, would not serve the purpose of the forum and would put the administrators in an undesirable position.

There was a time I have a standing invitation to all the BB's as well as masters and grandmasters from a certain organization to any fight. I have even listed my home address.

As they say, becareful what you ask for, you might get it.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by KennethKu
I am surprised that as instructor, you have failed to require any participants in your dojang/dojo/whatever, to sign the standard liability waiver.

Liability waivers can be litigated around... They don't absolve the instructor, the school, the business, or the students from all potential criminal or civil action.

Signing one is a good step toward prevention, but if a student gets rowdy and kicks another student in the head while he is down, student A better have a lawyer in the family since it could be argued that such action was not an expected occurrance during training, nor was such activitiy sanctioned by the school or reasonably expected nor explained.

The waiver then means d*ck.

Just an observation...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

Waivers do not absorb you from gross neglience, intentional fraud, nor intentionally inflicted harm . It is not a "get out of jail free" card nor a license to kill. It is a "cover your ***" basic step. You need it to demonstrate to the court that you have done your share to inform the other party of the risk involved.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Dojo yaburi (dojo busting) was not always done by bullies, in fact quite the opposite.
Before the days of tournaments and other rule laden events people had no out let in which to test themselves so they would go to a dojo and request a match with members of that dojo. This was common practice in Okinawa up until several years ago and matches were either accepted or declined. Miyamoto Musashi, Motbu Choki and others did this sort of thing.

It’s my opinion that after seeing “The Chinese Connection” with Bruce Lee and his famous dojo yaburi seen (which Jackie Chan is one of the stuntmen in BTW) people got the wrong idea about this practice and tried to imitate it…………more often than not unsuccessfully too.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by KennethKu
How typical. The same tactic that used on attacking Ryushikan previously.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Anyone with a good enough lizard can get around the waivers, especially in a society where people win lawsuits after purposly dipping their hands in 370' oil at a fast food shop.

I think Yiliquan1 hit the 'dojobusting' bit head on. Well said.

:asian:

 

[SteelShadow]

With the scenario yiliquan1 has given I would have no problem with it is respectfull and curtious.And even if deafeted the challenged person was respected.And the challenger was also respected by having his challenge excepted.

 

[Matt Stone]

Go Me!

No, seriously, this board and others like it are for sharing information. Sometimes that information is hard to take, sometimes that information is historical or academic, sometimes it is archaic and nearly forgotten.

But ultimately, we are all here to enjoy each other's company and to walk away learning something new.

So here's the something new -

Martial arts and martial artists were not the exclusive playground of the intellectual or the spiritualist. They were, for the most part, the purvue of fighters, soldiers, criminals and thugs. Sometimes egos got/get involved, sometimes people that shouldn't be trusted to walk the street were trusted with valuable and dangerous information.

***** happens, y'know?

But, sometimes there are accepted rules for things. Like war, for instance. We all agree to play by certain rules that benefit us all. Dojo busting benefits us all, by providing an inbuilt check and balance that'll keep the non-fighters from showing their faces in public and endangering innocent people with their BS teaching. By dojo busting in a particular manner, we allow ourselves the opportunity, should we be the ones being challenged, to win or lose gracefully and with some shred of dignity.

Just simple rules of engagement, nothing more.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

Ken,

I am surprised that as instructor, you have failed to require any participants in your dojang/dojo/whatever, to sign the standard liability waiver

I don't believe I ever said that I don't require a student to sign a waiver. It is required by the insurance that I carry. But as noted above by several....they are not 'bullet proof' in court. Merely a step towards protecting oneself. I have the waiver...but also the insurance.

As they say, becareful what you ask for, you might get it.

I am very careful...as should you be. You may question my wall candy all that you like. My experience is quite another thing. Don't question what your not prepared to test.

Yiliquan 1,

Have to give credit where it is due, good post. In your second scenerio, a valuable learning experience could occur on both sides. There is always room to grow and learn. If I attend a seminar and learn just one new thing, or a variation of something I do know then I count it as time well spent. I seek out cross-training at every opportunity.

In your second scenerio they might just discover a good friendship. A cherished thing.

:asian:

 

[Mike Clarke]

This thread is going all over the place, still, the subject of dojo yaburi reminded me of when I first relocated to Australia from England back in 1988. A local goju-ryu instructor objected to my arrivel and burst through the door of my first class with two of his 'friends' to, as they use to say in the old cowboy films, "Run me out of town!"

I was 'so' upset,let me tell you. After a brief exchange of words [he was yelling, and I was trying not to laugh], he left. I was quite happy to fight him, though my wife who was standing near by was less pleased with the prospect. He left, but not before he issued those [now] immortal words, "I'll be back."

This was my introduction to 'traditional karate' here in Australia.
I'd never heard of such things going on back in England and quiet frankly I found the whole thing a joke. What this guy expected to get out of the encounter was beyond me? Even if he and his friends had managed to give me a good kicking, I'd have just recovered and then run them down in my car a few months later!

Some martial arts folks need to get a life

Mike.

ps. He never did come back. [Lier,lier, pants on fire]

 

[RyuShiKan]

I have had more than a few people come to my dojo to “check me out”.
One person was a 4th or 5th dan in Uechi Ryu and his father had studied from Uechi Kanbun.

Long story short, he asked what I would do if someone did “this” or “that” and I said I couldn’t say until it actually happened.
He tried to hit me and wound up looking very closely at the flooring of my dojo in a fair amount of pain, (oddly enough I had used the same technique on him I had just shown one of my students.) I told him I guess I would do “that”.
He exclaimed I “cheated” and couldn’t do that in a tournament. I told him I didn’t know I was in a tournament and added it was my dojo and I could do whatever I damn well pleased.
He actually became my student for a while and later my business partner. We ran a chain of English Schools for several years.


Another guy came in and had some pretty decent sized calluses built up on his knuckles and I asked him if he had trained. He said “a long time ago”. One thing about calluses is they don’t stay for long so I knew this guy was up to something.
He joined for several months and had never seen nor heard of tuite or any grappling type stuff from kata so he was very keen on learning it. Then one day I happened to be walking to my dojo and notice some people carrying Gis, I asked them were their dojo was and they took me there.
Well guess who’s dojo I just happened to stumble on……..yup. Mr. “Knuckles” that claimed he trained a long time ago……..turns out he was a 6th dan in Shotokai and had been running a dojo for the last 15 years or so.
I caught him in mid class and he was trying to teach the tuite I had shown him while he was at my dojo.
He was actually teaching it in correctly……..so I walked into his dojo with my shoes on, went straight up to him and said to him so the class could hear……"If your going to teach what I taught you at least teach it the proper way I showed you”…….I told him to get in line with the students and then I took over teaching his class for that night. Afterwards I told him not to come back to my dojo as he wouldn’t be welcome because he had lied to me.


Fun, fun, fun in the Land of the Rising Sun.....

 

[tshadowchaser]

The days of "dojo busting" are not that far behind us. As has been stated there where formal and acccepted ways of trying out the new instructor. Some instructors even would allow a 1 month open challange to all that wanted to come in. He either won and kept the school open or closed.
The person that comes in and quietly watched then asked to try your skills was polite and you might even becomes friends after.
Beating arms was also another test of skill in some areas.
As for insurance and waiver and the court systems. If a person willingly signs a waiver and nothing out of the ordinary happens but he is still injured that is one thing, but if you trow him to the floor and then stomp on his head half a dozen times that is beyound the scoop of the waiver. It comes down to what a resonable person can expect after watching the class and being told how violent the class is.
Yes I have been challanged and yes I have been the challanger in years past. Thats another srory and maybe something I might handle differently today, but back then you closed down schools that where not ligit.
Shadow :asian:

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
....Don't question what your not prepared to test....

I would and I have questioned Blackbelts, Masters as well as Grandmasters. I have publicly called into question their patriotism, loyalty, honestly etc, when the circumstances warranted. Yes, I used my real name and I have revealed my address with a standing invitation to take up any challenger who would want to bash my head in. (Granted, that wasn't exaclty a prudent endeavour.) Being there done that. With this being an internet forum, administrators do not look favourably towards members who hook up to lock horn. Therefore, I wouldn't say any more.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser ..... It comes down to what a resonable person can expect after watching the class and being told how violent the class is.....

That is the legal test, ie "what a reasonable person would expect".

 

[zen_hydra]

My brother and I have, for a while now, been trying to convince our Sifu to allow us to go do a little unofficial "dojo busting." Many of the schools around here specialize in wushu-like "black-belt teams," and call themselves Martial Art Studios. Here in San Antonio there is a real glut of crap martial arts, and it offends my sense of taste. I am a believer that people who train in an art, and/or claim to train others in an art, need to be ready to defend their claims through their art. In this case the art is a martial one.