Ryu

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by chufeng ......
Is he authentic Pangainoon?

Only a real Pangainoon person would know...

In the old days, a Pangainoon enforcer from Japan would be booking passage to America by now. After the swelling in his eyes had gone down enough, certain individual might come to the conclusion that prudence is a better part of valor, and would not claim titles and ranks in vain again.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by KennethKu
In the old days, a Pangainoon enforcer from Japan would be booking passage to America by now. After the swelling in his eyes had gone down enough, certain individual might come to the conclusion that prudence is a better part of valor, and would not claim titles and ranks in vain again.

Ahhh, the good old days... Not sure they were so good, but things certainly were done differently.

I know of several people who are still around that participated in, and continue to participate in, "dojo busting." They go to a questionable school, during a nice, busy class, and challeng the instructor to put up or shut up.

With today's overly litigious society, that isn't always the wisest thing to do, but it certainly cuts back on the mini-mall frauds...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

I know of several people who are still around that participated in, and continue to participate in, "dojo busting." They go to a questionable school, during a nice, busy class, and challeng the instructor to put up or shut up.

Does that kind of thing still go on?
Anybody you know ever done that?

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Does that kind of thing still go on?
Anybody you know ever done that?

I can imagine that you can get lots of satisfaction in dojo busting... It's a mixture of military/LEO/human and social services put together. Human and social services, with fighting frauds. What is the world coming to?

 

[SteelShadow]

Yes it goes on still.I had first opened my school in alabama been open about a month when some students from a school about 15 miles away came calling one night.They interupted my class and openly challenged me.It finaly ended up on the mat Only one of them realy wanted to fight the other was there for kicks I think.The altercation lasted about 2 minets When it was over the one that didnt fight appoligized and they left.The next day I went and saw the head instructor of the other school I knew him somewhat personaly I explained what had happened.And he exspelled the two students without a second thought.They then tried to come join my school I turned them away.There is no call for this kind of thing its stupid.Its only done for ego reasons and to try to prove your a big shot.If they have any honor about them or respect for the martial arts this would not happen.So they think someone is a fraud big deal.They dont have to train there or even go there for that matter.

I would like to know who gives the people that do these dojo bustings the authority or the right to just disrespect someones dojo or school.There chumps and punks.That dosnt deserve to be called martial artists.there simply bullies under another guise.And sooner or later they gonna run across the wrong person and get carried from a school instead of being able to walk out.

Sorry for the long rant I feel very passionate about the arts all arts.And its the kinda morons that do things like dojo busting that Hurts the martial arts in general.

just my thoughts .....

 

[Deaf]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I remember the Bujinkan folks being particularly bummed because Hatsumi wasn't recognized by the ryu recognizing folks in Japan because there was so little documentaion on the non-Ninjutsu stuff in Bujinkan training to produce valid authentication of his claims... That was the organization I was speaking of. I have also heard it mentioned that part of the reason that Hatsumi isn't accepted is because he claims to be a ninja... Whatever.

huh?? When was this? Funny if you ask me because the Bujinkan is MADE up of 9 different Ryu. and from what I understand...there is plenty of documentation (scrolls etc) regarding those Ryu except for the ninjutsu based.

This is a first that I have heard about it but then again I don't hear much!

I seriously doubt it bummed us out that bad.

~Deaf~

 

[RyuShiKan]

The question is not in the scrolls themselves, but in rather how Hatsumi obtained them and whether or not he really studied the material within them from somebody or merely imitated the rudimentary drawings that are inside.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by SteelShadow
Yes it goes on still.I had first opened my school in alabama been open about a month when some students from a school about 15 miles away came calling one night.They interupted my class and openly challenged me.It finaly ended up on the mat Only one of them realy wanted to fight the other was there for kicks I think.The altercation lasted about 2 minets When it was over the one that didnt fight appoligized and they left.The next day I went and saw the head instructor of the other school I knew him somewhat personaly I explained what had happened.And he exspelled the two students without a second thought.They then tried to come join my school I turned them away.There is no call for this kind of thing its stupid.Its only done for ego reasons and to try to prove your a big shot.If they have any honor about them or respect for the martial arts this would not happen.So they think someone is a fraud big deal.They dont have to train there or even go there for that matter.

I would like to know who gives the people that do these dojo bustings the authority or the right to just disrespect someones dojo or school.There chumps and punks.That dosnt deserve to be called martial artists.there simply bullies under another guise.And sooner or later they gonna run across the wrong person and get carried from a school instead of being able to walk out.

Sorry for the long rant I feel very passionate about the arts all arts.And its the kinda morons that do things like dojo busting that Hurts the martial arts in general.

just my thoughts .....

If you were the real deal, you would not be afraid of challenge to your skills. In fact if you were a real teacher of your art, you would welcome the opportunity to enlighten the uninformed young bucks. Your bitterness surprises me.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by KennethKu
If you were the real deal, you would not be afraid of challenge to your skills. In fact if you were a real teacher of your art, you would welcome the opportunity to enlighten the uninformed young bucks. Your bitterness surprises me.

Enlightening them could have resulted in a law suit, and killing his
way of making a living.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Kirk
Enlightening them could have resulted in a law suit, and killing his
way of making a living.

That would be the case if you stink at your art and cannot control the extent of force used. :asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by SteelShadow
I would like to know who gives the people that do these dojo bustings the authority or the right to just disrespect someones dojo or school.There chumps and punks.That dosnt deserve to be called martial artists.there simply bullies under another guise.And sooner or later they gonna run across the wrong person and get carried from a school instead of being able to walk out.

Sorry for the long rant I feel very passionate about the arts all arts.And its the kinda morons that do things like dojo busting that Hurts the martial arts in general.

just my thoughts .....

Well, once upon a time, this was the norm... If a new school opened up, the instructor was in for quite the initiation. Every local instructor and a few of his top students would be showing up to see whether the new guy had anything under his belt. If he didn't, the school ended up closing.

Even further back than that, especially in Japanese tradition, it was accepted for someone of skill to visit other teachers/fighters, and challenge them. The ones he beat, he left. The ones that beat him, he asked to teach him. That is just how it was...

I understand the fear of lawsuits and such, but actually I believe this kind of practice strengthens the arts, rather than weakens them. At least, it strengthens the real arts. The arts that are taught to 8 year olds and tournament hounds may well be adversely impacted...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

Back in the early days of karate (and kung-fu to some degree), this kind of thing was not at all uncommon. Sometimes another teacher would send his senior students in to "test the waters." I had this kind of thing happen to me more than once.

I agree with Yiliquan 1; it actually helps strengthen the martial arts. As things are nowadays, virtually anybody can buy a black belt and hang out a shingle and declare himself a 14th degree Ultra-cosmic Grandmaster...
If the "old days" were back, this wouldn't be so common...

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Ahhh, the good old days... Not sure they were so good, but things certainly were done differently.

I know of several people who are still around that participated in, and continue to participate in, "dojo busting."

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

My Sifu has done that but not for those reasons. Theres a disrespectful political mess that came out of the Oakland JKD school. Sifu has (honorably) confronted several Sifu in their schools in front of their students beause they trash talked about his father and the way he teaches. His father and himself even approached them at their "gathering" of the of them all in one place at one time because they had talked about their teachings.

They pulled their peers out from their seats and "showed" them what they've done with their art.

"IF YOU PLAY, YOU HAVE TO BE READY TO PAY!"

I have the tape, it was completely respectable the way Sifu and Sigung represented themselves.

One more thing. I know I've said it before but when people this or that about their technique, Sifu always says, "show me."
Its simple and straight to the point.

 

[yilisifu]

Yes. A friend of mine many eons ago had a teacher (7-star mantis) who was Chinese. They lived on the east coast. It was common for his teacher to walk in to other kung-fu schools and politely introduce himself and then ask the teacher (with a smile), "Wanna fight?"

 

[SteelShadow]

For one I have no fear of being challenged.Theres is only two outcomes I win or I lose.

Second I do not make my living teaching I do it because I love it I barely make enough to cover the schools bills.

I have no problem with someone wanting to test my skills as long as they dont come in disrespecting me my students or my school.

Also I never even considered leagal action against the students that came calling on me.Nor would I have if I had lost the fight.
It wouldnt be the first time in my life I had lost a fight.And in all reality probably wont be the last.

My problem isnt with a friendly test of skill even if that test is all out .I think its a great way to exchange martial techniques and training ideas.
My problem is with the ones that come barging in direspectfully
Demanding a fight.They are no diffrent then a bully on the street or the drunk in a bar whos always picking a fight.And deserve to be treated as such.

In alot of cases by doing such a thing as dojo crashing the attacking person isnt seen as a better martial artist. Simply as a bully or egomaniac looking for gratification.

Not only is it disrespectfull.To those that would use it in most cases its illeagal.And in my book down right wrong.

I have known instructors I felt were frauds but I wouldnt go to there school and jump on them for it.

And anyone who would go around trying to beat people up because they dont agree with them or think there a fraud.Needs to look inside thereself and see what insecurity is driving them.

A true warrior or martial artist not only knows how to fight but when and for what reasons to fight.


Just my thoughts....

 

[A.R.K.]

Those that go about disrespecting others, expecially in front of students, are the ones with issues. Perhaps this was done in other places, in other times, but it does not make it right. In this country as with others people can sue for anything and often do. Look at any website that deals with frivolous law suits for a more indepth understanding. It is a lose-lose situation. Comments such as Ken's

That would be the case if you stink at your art and cannot control the extent of force used.

Are unrealistic at best. Ken if someone went to your school and challenged you and you won they could initiate a law suit against you claiming injury. Remember a perception can be as damaging as a reality.

And Martial Arts are suppose to be for defense only. With the exception of duty-related careers. To fight brings no honor and no glory. You can talk about unskilled teachers and mall dojo's etc all that you like, but time will test them far better than fighting.

This is the code I teach and also every reputable instructor that I am aware of world-wide. Defense only [with the exception of tournaments, which I see as pointless and hypocritical]. If we teach others to walk in peace...we should be setting the example to the nth degree as instructors.

My opinion :asian:

 

[KennethKu]

You are incorrect. I am surprised that someone who claims to have founded an art, does not realize there is such thing called a liability waiver. In addition, by law, when you engage in an activity that involves a substantial amount of risk, you ASSUME the liability of being injured. Therefore you have waived your right to held others responsible, by knowingly engaging in activities, which you knew or should have known, to be very likely to cause you injury. That, with a legal waiver you sign, releasing the owner/operator of injury, UNLESS such injury is the result of GROSS or obvious negligent of the part of the owner/operator, such as, but not limited to, faulty eguipment, slippery floor, etc.

I believe the ol saying about Never to take legal advice from cops, is valid.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Those that go about disrespecting others, expecially in front of students, are the ones with issues. Perhaps this was done in other places, in other times, but it does not make it right. In this country as with others people can sue for anything and often do. Look at any website that deals with frivolous law suits for a more indepth understanding. It is a lose-lose situation. Comments such as Ken's



Are unrealistic at best. Ken if someone went to your school and challenged you and you won they could initiate a law suit against you claiming injury. Remember a perception can be as damaging as a reality.

And Martial Arts are suppose to be for defense only. With the exception of duty-related careers. To fight brings no honor and no glory. You can talk about unskilled teachers and mall dojo's etc all that you like, but time will test them far better than fighting.

This is the code I teach and also every reputable instructor that I am aware of world-wide. Defense only [with the exception of tournaments, which I see as pointless and hypocritical]. If we teach others to walk in peace...we should be setting the example to the nth degree as instructors.

My opinion :asian:

Kind of concerned that someone might indeed show up at your school?

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by SteelShadow
......And anyone who would go around trying to beat people up because they dont agree with them or think there a fraud.Needs to look inside thereself and see what insecurity is driving them.

A true warrior or martial artist not only knows how to fight but when and for what reasons to fight.
....

Busting fraud seems to be a worthy cause, wouldn't you think?

 

[A.R.K.]

You are incorrect. I am surprised that someone who claims to have founded an art, does not realize there is such thing called a liability waiver

No, I am correct despite your juvenille quip. A liabiltiy waiver only goes so far, that is why there is liability insurance. And the current topic was someone from outside the school comming in to 'bust' the school. "Yeah Mr. tough guy I'll fight you...but first you gotta sign my school's liability waiver" :shrug:

I believe the ol saying about Never to take legal advice from cops, is valid.

Not legal advice, it's common sence. In this country you can be sued for just about anything. And Jury's are a funny thing when awarding settlements.

Kind of concerned that someone might indeed show up at your school?

No one has yet...why don't you be the first?

Busting fraud seems to be a worthy cause, wouldn't you think?

Sure...if you approach actually accomplished this cause. :shrug: As it is it doesn't, it just gives an excuse to let the testosterone fly. Abilities vary from style to style and person to person. One person 'besting' another in combat doesn't prove fraud it proves 'any given day'.

And again defeats the purpose of training in the martial arts...defense only.

You seem intend on keeping old arguements alive and bringing into the conversation cute little shots at me. Are you that insecure with yourself. You got a problem then act like a man and email it to me. Time for these discussions to return to the topic at hand.

Your welcome at any time to stop by my school and discuss it face to face instead of from the safety of your computer keyboard. I'll be more than happy to email you directions and the times I'm there to discuss any problem you may have personally. Is this the dreaded 'internet challenge'...nope. Just making myself accessable to you should you desire to come by and 'bust me'. Since you can't leave it alone.....

I've earned everything I have. Don't like it....to bad and so sad. Try and do something about it :soapbox: