Punish or not?

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lvwhitebir

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My students and I visited a local tournament over the weekend. One of them, a 16 year old teen, was disqualified from his sparring match due to excessive contact.

From what I can gather from talking with both the event coordinator and the student (I was unable to see the match), the match was tied with one point remaining. Both students rushed in to get the point and my student kicked the other in the stomach giving him, basically, a standing knockout. The student fell to the floor with difficulty breathing. EMS was called and the student was tended to, with the EMS giving him permission to go home.

My student has had very small problems in the past with excessive contact and is young. He was warned earlier the match regarding contact. My question is, should I punish him and if so, how? I want him to understand that he caused an extremely dangerous situation. Any suggestions?

WhiteBirch
 

Blindside

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Personally, I wouldn't worry about it.

He smacked his opponent a little too hard, there was no injury, and he got DQ'd. Punishment enough in my book.

I would disagree that he "caused a very dangerous situation" he is trained to punch and kick his opponent. Which he did. The "excessive contact" rule is over-called in most tournaments today, I mean we are studying MARTIAL arts right?

Just my opinion,

Lamont
 
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khadaji

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most of my students who get into similar situations take care of in a particulare style. I ususaly try not to directly assult them verbaly, I try to get them to do most of the talking. basicly you got to ask him/her questions. Show some distinct signs of anger.

The idea is that you want to make it look like you are angry, but trying to supress it. This will give the impression that you are trying to go easy on them.

you ask.

"What are you doing?"

"Is that the right way to do it?"

"Why do we do it?"

"Then why were you not doing it?"

"Do you want to be band from tournoment?"

"Do I have to punish you?"

"Would punshing work?"

"What do you think you should to to make up for this?"

an on on.

Basicly you ask questions so that all the factors in the situation become clear, but they are the ones who think it up, you just push them into the right conclution.

This sort of like using a guilt trip on them, but if the student respects you they will want to correct their error.

when it becaomes clear the the student about what he did you should at some later point go over everything in the rules.

You have to make sure that you are trying to all you can to help them, at the same time show disapointment in what they did.

a sutible punishment i think would to have the student work hard, or do some project involving the rules that were violated. Some times this can be done, but putting the student incharge of teaching others in the proper control, however many others could wok as well. Then make it clear that you will check on the results. Many other ideas could work.

often i found that students respect you much more then you may think.

hope this may be useful, and not to confusing.
 

Marcus Buonfiglio

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Let me see if I understand this correctly. Both students initiated a technique. Your student hit the other student in the stomach with a kick. The other competitor hit your students foot with his stomach. The result of that clash was that the guy got the wind knocked out of him. To me, unless there was intent to do injury, that is a good point and your student should have been rewarded with the victory. Sparring, although controlled in it's contact, is non the less a contact sport. Had the other competitor not charged into the kick, the resultant force wouldn't have been as great and there wouldn't have been an issue. Again unless there was intent to do injury, congratulate your student for a well excuted technique and work at controlling penetration on a charging opponent so he wont be penalized in the future for someones elses lack of proper defence.
 

cali_tkdbruin

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I agree with Blindside, a disqualification should serve as enough punishment and it sends your student a message on how to behave in tourneys. However, that said, this still is after all the martial arts and not some easy non-contact activity. Getting blasted hard with a punch or kick happens sometimes, and comes with the territory. It should be expected. Also, refs can each interpret the excessive contact rule differently... :asian:
 
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gman

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I would have to agree with Marcus B. Unless there was some bad intent or some control neglegence it's a contact sport. I've been whacked harder being show a new technique than in sparring.
 

theletch1

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I gotta go with the folks saying the DQ was punishment enough unless the student tends to take the DQ for excessive contact as a matter of pride. I've stepped into kicks while sparring in kenpo and been knocked out of breathe before on more than one occassion. No-ones fault but my own. It taught me to be more aware of my opponents movement. Sounds like he fought well, threw a well placed kick and just caught the guy in the solar plexus. If he isn't proud of the way he was DQed then I'd say he has already been punished enough.
 

Zepp

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I've got to agree with Blindside and theletch. More punishment doesn't really sound warranted in this case. It was a tournament- this stuff happens.

Unless of course, you think your student intended to harm his opponent. Then I think you should reconsider letting him train. But it doesn't sound like that's the case.
 

Roland

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Sounds like they both walked into each other, only one person got it though, could have been the other guy, or it could have been both. Sounds like they got off lucky. If no harm was meant, I would say leave well enough alone.

:cool:
 
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MountainSage

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It is a combat sport. If you believe non-contact works, I am more than willing to let you live in that dream world. Let the weak be weeded out and the strong step forward. Non-contact is for those that aren't strong enough and believe the technique is more important than learning to survive a conflict. I train with several people who ahve great air and pad technique, but strap on the pad with a target that strikes back and their technique aint much. I must admit that I personally don't spar in tournaments. I like my teeth in my mouth and my head to stay on my shoulders.

Mountain Sage
 

cali_tkdbruin

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Originally posted by MountainSage
It is a combat sport. If you believe non-contact works, I am more than willing to let you live in that dream world. Let the weak be weeded out and the strong step forward. Non-contact is for those that aren't strong enough and believe the technique is more important than learning to survive a conflict. I train with several people who ahve great air and pad technique, but strap on the pad with a target that strikes back and their technique aint much. I must admit that I personally don't spar in tournaments. I like my teeth in my mouth and my head to stay on my shoulders.

Mountain Sage

Right, if you're going to compete expect to be hit, so be alert at all times and keep your guard up. Hit before you are hit, score before your opponent scores. You aren't out there lawn bowling or lounging, it's the MAs and bodily damage can occur.
 
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Kingston

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punished? For kicking a kid in the stomach!.......Do you teach ballet or martial arts?

I hope your students call you coach, cuz your teaching them a sport budy.

im sorry, but someone had to say it. I aint a tough guy, or some hardcore sparring nut, but seriously, he just kicked a guy in the stomach while sparring, so what? I guess its just how you look at it.......

when we see that stuff......you say: "OH NO! Should we punish this misguided child!"

I say: "give the kid a point, looked like he won to me :D"

(i know the kick hurt the kid, but its not like he was injured......arent kicks supposed to hurt?)

im sorry i just cant understand why the kid should get punished, I cant comprehend it. Remind him of the rules maybe, but dont punish him. This is Martial arts right? For some reason i feel like im in the wrong forum.......:(
 

Seig

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Unless your student does things of this nature as a matter of routine, then this should be a learning situation, not a punishable one. When in a tournament, we all take our chances, if you do not believe that, then why do we have to sign a waiver? Nothing you said indicates that he intended to harm his opponent. Unless you happen to know every official that was ring side personally, i would take what they have to say regarding his earlier warning with a grain of salt.
 

Seig

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Form what you have stated, this seems to me to be a learning situation, not a punishable one. Nothing you said indicates that he intended harm. As far as the earlier warning in the match, unless you know every ring official personally, I would take that with a grain of salt. There is some damned poor officiating out there. Unless your student makes a habit of hurting people while engaged in your school's activites, learn from it and move on.
 
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yilisifu

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I don't think punishment is necessary, per se. Just talking to him and explaining what happened and your feelings about it should be enough. These kinds of things happen, especially in competition when adrenaline is pumping and the pressure is on.
 
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lvwhitebir

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Thanks for your opinions everyone.

Originally posted by MountainSage
It is a combat sport. If you believe non-contact works, I am more than willing to let you live in that dream world. Let the weak be weeded out and the strong step forward. Non-contact is for those that aren't strong enough and believe the technique is more important than learning to survive a conflict.

I have no illusions about contact fighting and don't believe in non-contact unless it's a drill. My school does fight a little closer to full-contact, with leg, groin, and face contact. But... tournaments have rules to keep people safe. I'm not creating some army or street thugs here. I'm creating martial artists. Martial artists respect rules and human beings. Thugs don't.

My concern is that 1) I don't really know what his intent was and 2) I don't want to create some kind of bully, and 3) to be honest, I don't want schools around to question my teaching ethics.

Yes it might have just been incidental contact. But that contact, delivered just a little off to the side or a little higher, might have broken a rib and possibly punctured a lung. This wasn't a boxing match where the intent is to knock the other person out. The intent is to fight in a friendly match in order to win a little piece of metal.

Originally posted by MountainSage
I must admit that I personally don't spar in tournaments. I like my teeth in my mouth and my head to stay on my shoulders.
[/B]

This is the reason why sparring has rules; I have to work the next day and my students do too. They have to know where the line is on contact so that everyone can spar and still be safe. I believe sparring is a required aspect of martial arts training, so that you develop reflexes in an uncertain environment against a resisting opponent.

Yes I'm torn on this. In a match against me, he caught my head with a heavy roundhouse once, too. I made sure to tell him that it was far to much contact, but I also congratulated his technique. Mixed message I guess.

WhiteBirch
 
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lvwhitebir

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Originally posted by yilisifu
I don't think punishment is necessary, per se. Just talking to him and explaining what happened and your feelings about it should be enough. These kinds of things happen, especially in competition when adrenaline is pumping and the pressure is on.

My gut reaction is to talk to him to get an idea of what happened and why. I will then tell him about why I think he did wrong and what the possible consequences of his actions might have been. The only punishment I'm considering is revoking his contact fighting classes for 2 weeks. Instead, he'll work drills, especially one's involving judging contact.

I also got a card to send to the school/student that got injured and will make sure he formally appologizes for his actions.

WhiteBirch
 
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MartialArtist

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Punish for excessive contact? Nah, it's the martial arts, and you will get hit and you have to hit.

Now... If it was done without class, out of smite, or anything like that, then yes, he should be punished.
 
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Shinzu

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people must realize when they enter any competition that there is a margin for injury. that is why you sign the waver. i dont think he has anything to be ashamed of. he saw the danger, recognized it, and reacted to defend himself. on the street he would have been the last one standing. thats what really counts!
 

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