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A.R.K.

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I doubt highly the credibility of any piece of paper, regardless of who presents it. I believe skill on the mat and skill on the street count more than parchment and ink.

EXACTLY!!!

The wall candy and the belt mean nothing in and of themselves. It is merely a public recognition of what someone else things of you either on a personal or organizational level. A high ranking Dan with no practical experience may very well fare far worse in an altercation than a no rank individual with limited knowledge but real world experience. Experience and heart over technical skill and titles.

As I've said numerous times, I'm not mad at Robert or his followers. Quite the opposite, I have much to be grateful for as the result of their comments and views. And I will give credit where it is due, if not for this 'debate' I wouldn't be thinking along the lines that I now am thinking. Mya Ryu Jitsu probably isn't grammatically correct especially with mixing the two languages. Yes, the honorable intent is/was there and the meaning clear to us. But constructive criticism is always welcome if the intent is to be helpful rather than hurtful. Our intent was to tie where we are now to where we 'came' from in terms of homage to a country. In this case a Japanese name.

But Japanese systems aren't the only training that has influenced us. Their is quite a bit of China, Korea, Canadian, Great Britian and the Middle East and American contributing to our overall abilities. By chosing MRJ we excluded quite a bit. And another point, we are Americans. Why would/should we pattern ourselves after other styles and systems. It would be far better to be original and innovative. Since I hardly ever wear a belt...why incorporate belts into our system? Their are other ways to designate a students progress. Why wear traditional gi's? I normally wear a comfortable T and gym pants. Why use foriegn terminology such as kyu, dan, titles etc.

We have decided to revamp the outer layers of our system so that it relflects our goals, ideaology, focus as well as pride in our country. Still with high respect for our fighting 'roots' but everyone needs to take all of life's experiences and make them personal to themselves. I know the goals I'm/we're trying to reach. I have great joy in teaching and putting my experience into my students training. It has achieved wonderful results in the real world for many of them both in a high risk career field as well as off-duty time.

I don't want to sound a philisophical here, but my opinion really is that a black belt is meaningless in and of itself. If someone says 'I'm a black belt' what does it really mean beyond paying some money and taking the appropriate amount of classes? It doesn't mean anything...it is the PERSON that means something. And that meaning is going to vary from person to person.

Robert I'm sure your a fine teacher and martial artist. I'm sure you have worked extremely hard to get to where your at now. I know your passionate in your beliefs and I commend and applaude you. My credentials are real and valid but do not come from Asia. If this therefore invalidates them in your eyes then let them be as dust to you. My credentials come from Americans, Europeans and the Middle East. I feel they have a fine tradition with much to offer. If this is unsatisfactory to you then completely disregard them at my insistance.

I think Robert that you and some of the Yili folks have stated that I'm a good teacher and good fighter and it's the credential thing between us. As I said, since it's not Asian then disregard them. I won't be upset at all. Thank you for your commenting as to being a good techer, that does mean a lot. As for being a good fighter...I prefer not to be known for this. In the real world, have I hurt men? Yes I have...but there is no glory in this. There is no honor. It's not 'fun' to break a man. I don't wake up in the morning looking for the opportunity. It is an unfortunate necessity of the career that I have chosen. It is far to easy to hurt someone. I would rather be known for the times I have deesculated a situation and avoided force. I would rather be known for the people I've saved. I would rather be known as an innovator and creative teacher. I would rather be known for being a person to turn to when in need.

I would invite you to know me for who I am and what I can offer.

:asian:
 
C

chufeng

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This thread has completely side-stepped the original question...

Since it was a comment I made elsewhere that sparked this thread, let me share what I found.

The book that I was referring to was written by David Lowry. It is titled: Sword and Brush: the spirit of the martial arts.

Chapter 6, page 30 & 31 (in my copy).

"It was not until the strife-ridden Muromachi age (ca. 1300-1600) that warrior clans began to organize their professional skills, to polish those that were most effective, and to transmit them to other clan members. Such evolution allowed learning from the accumulated experiences of others. It was the foundation of the martial ryu.
The martial ryu assumed distinctive identities based upon specific strategies they adopted...some ryu were the exclusive domain of a single clan or fiefdom...Yet, no matter what the course or breadth of instruction, the form of transmitting skills through the ryu was-and, in those still extant, is-consistent. They are passed on from one generation to the next, preserved as a living structure..."

This was the first book I read regarding that term...however, I have since read additional information that a ryu must pass through more than one generation to be a ryu...

I'll still need to look further for that reference...but I haven't forgotten the original question...and I'm not sure how we got to this point in the thread, but let's try and keep it on topic or we'll need to start another to finish the discussion of the original question...

:asian:
chufeng
 
A

A.R.K.

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Chufeng,

That might be a difficult task nailing down a definitive meaning. It may very well have changed from era to era. Earlier I mentioned Uechi-ryu. It became a Ryu directly after Kanbun's death in 1947, changed by his son Kanie to honor him.

What about the other Ryu's such as Goju and Isshin? Did they become a Ryu after a lengthy period or more immediately after some type of event i.e. death, system separtation etc?

:asian:
 

Matt Stone

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Originally posted by akja
Regulation does not work. The only people that are in favor of martial art regulation are the ones that are going to make money on it, period. The smart ones don’t want it.

I disagree on this generality. I don't make a dime for teaching, nor do I want to. I do, however, have a vested interest in maintaining standards in the MA community, one of which is legitimacy. Having instructors with questionable credentials is a detriment to us all, TMAists and non-TMAists alike. We rely on our credentials, whatever they may be (belt grades registered with international organizations or fight titles), to lend credibility and authenticity to what we do. There are folks out there teaching completely bogus garbage to the unsuspecting, unwitting, ignorant public. They are nothing more than wolves preying on sheep, and if we don't police them up, we all suffer in the long run.

Hence the absolute requirement for some sort of regulation, be it by the MA community as a whole at large, or each individual organization maintaining its own standards and refusing to compromise them in order to expand.

Money enters in, sure. I'm neither blind nor naive. However, the ultimate goal is one that benefits us all, including those of us who teach for free...

Gambarimasu.
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Matt Stone

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Originally posted by chufeng
RSK,

I know that I read the generational requirement in a book that detailed Japanese systems...however, I can't tell you which book it was...I don't keep a bibilography with footnotes on every book I read...

Perhaps you could ask around and see what the current thought is on that term...it may have historically developed with generational requirements but currently is no longer used that way...

I'll keep looking for the book that referenced it...

:asian:
chufeng

I've heard the same thing, though I think it was in a discussion on E-budo regarding other arts... There is, I think, a requirement by the Japanese governmental organization that monitors and registers MAs as authentic, for a MA to be considered a "ryu."

I know that doesn't help to authenticate this theory, but at least it isn't one isolated comment...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
 

Matt Stone

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Originally posted by DAC..florida
Yilisifu,

You say that all ranks should be registered with there root countries ect., but you know as well as I do that all are not.

No. I think what Yilisifu said was that people that claim to teach an art that is governed by a particular organization should be registered with that organization. He didn't say that they should be registered with their "root country."

That doesnt mean that there not legit, it just means that they chose not to ascoiate with that organization? Maybe they had past differences or somthing, but for whatever reason they have no affiliation with Japanese org.
I'm not saying that this is true because I honestly dont know but I'm pretty sure that this could be possible!

No, the legitimacy of that teacher isn't necessarily called into question, but it sure looks bad when he claims to teach a style that is recognized as being taught and governed by a particular organization and his name is nowhere to be found in their rosters... It brings to mind questions that must be answered to the satisfaction of anyone asking - otherwise, that instructor will bear the brunt of public distrust. The same can be said of non-MA situations with similar issues.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
 
C

chufeng

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MRJ,

I certainly think that, based on that excerpt, one could call his art a ryu...but the proof of the ryu is in its surviving beyond one generation...and I think that is exactly what the other book said...the ryu of traditional systems existed beyond one generation of teachers (after all, if it didn't survive, it's not around anymore)...so, my first comment on that other thread may have been incorrect...

...and I've already acknowledged that the term may have a different meaning in today's world...

This kind of underscores the issue of incorrect use of language...and I really am not interested in opening that can of worms (so you picky language guys don't need to respond)...

I supported a "dictionary of terms" or glossary for this web-board in the not so distant past...perhaps issues of language could be avoided if we had one and had it "sticky" so that everyone who enters a forum sees it.

:asian:
chufeng
 
A

A.R.K.

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I supported a "dictionary of terms" or glossary for this web-board in the not so distant past...perhaps issues of language could be avoided if we had one and had it "sticky" so that everyone who enters a forum sees it.

That is actually a very good idea.

As I mentioned, we will be changing names very soon to avoid toe-stepping and any confusion. I think it in the best interest of what our goals are. Belts and such will be discontinued. To be honest, none of our students were big on us adopting a belt ranking system to begin with. They just wanted solid training that they can use on-duty. That is our focus, not competitions or titles but going home safe at the end of a shift.

Let me add that there is nothing wrong with belts and such. We would just like to take a different approach. :)

:asian:
 
C

chufeng

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MRJ,

Most of the YiLi folks could give a sparrow's fart about rank.
Getting Yiliquan1 to wear any rank is difficult, at best...he's always taking it off and tying it on a student who doesn't have a belt...(after all, the reason a belt was worn in the first place, at least in Chinese systems, was to focus the practitioner on the tan t'ien when breathing out)...our rank structure is more for the benefit of the teacher and less about who wears what at training...

But, and I don't want to hit a hornets' nest with a stick...the concern some people have is with the legitimacy of your Pangainoon rank...quite frankly, I don't care...and I do not plan on responding to the vortex which surrounds that topic...

I'm satisfied with the answers you've provided.

...and I'm certainly tired of beating a dead horse...the damn thing won't run...

:asian:
chufeng
 

Matt Stone

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Originally posted by chufeng
Most of the YiLi folks could give a sparrow's fart about rank.
Getting Yiliquan1 to wear any rank is difficult, at best...he's always taking it off and tying it on a student who doesn't have a belt...

If I had a white belt, that is all I would wear... If folks looking at me think less of me because of I wear a white belt, F 'em. The only reason I wear a belt at all is because a) it holds my jacket shut, b) I never know when I will need to tie it around a student's waist to illustrate a point, and c) the bylaws of our organization require it...

Rank means Richard... I was chatting with one of our seniors last night on the internet, and he was trying to convince me that I should be tested for Level 3 soon... NOT! :D Hell, I don't even think I deserve what I wear as it is...

MRJ, here's my take - you have knowledge. I don't begrudge you that. The only burr there has ever really been under my saddle was that you felt you deserved better treatment than you got when you first came on this board... Whatever. I admit most folks get greeted a little more friendly-like, but then again most folks don't claim to have started their own style, nor do they claim lofty grades in multiple styles... Whatever.

Some of your posts have intrigued me. Some have had some good info. Some have been a little too "pat myself on the back for the cool stuff I have done/experienced/seen." Whatever.

As for the ryu thing, regardless of what the Uechi people did, it has been my understanding for quite a while that some method must be around for at least several generations to warrant being referred to as a ryu... The longevity of that particular method simply must be established through time and survival. Japanese, Okinawan, Chinese, Korean, whatever - all cutlures make mistakes, even within their own cultural rules structures. If Uechi's kid or grandkid renamed the thing a ryu to honor his ancestor - fine. It still goes against the grain. Does that change it? No. Do people give two frog farts? Probably not, beyond the academicians (like me, who are picky about things like that). Will the world stop turning and the polar caps melt? I doubt it.

Do I like the fact that things get misused and then lend further confusion to folks from outside the cultural context of an art's origin? Not a bit. But I live with the pain... :D

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
 

James Kovacich

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Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I disagree on this generality. I don't make a dime for teaching, nor do I want to. I do, however, have a vested interest in maintaining standards in the MA community, one of which is legitimacy. Having instructors with questionable credentials is a detriment to us all, TMAists and non-TMAists alike. We rely on our credentials, whatever they may be (belt grades registered with international organizations or fight titles), to lend credibility and authenticity to what we do. There are folks out there teaching completely bogus garbage to the unsuspecting, unwitting, ignorant public. They are nothing more than wolves preying on sheep, and if we don't police them up, we all suffer in the long run.

Hence the absolute requirement for some sort of regulation, be it by the MA community as a whole at large, or each individual organization maintaining its own standards and refusing to compromise them in order to expand.

Money enters in, sure. I'm neither blind nor naive. However, the ultimate goal is one that benefits us all, including those of us who teach for free...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

There are exceptions to most things in life but the bill that they've been trying to pass will do more harm than good. There are many legitimate instructors who would fall between the cracks and many Mc Dojo will flourish.:asian:
 
R

RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
I think Robert that you and some of the Yili folks have stated that I'm a good teacher and good fighter and it's the credential thing between us.


Nope, never stated such a thing….and don’t care if you are either.
All my impressions of you were based on several claims that you made here.
First was the Soke thing……..which you got rid of, and I appreciate.
Now is the claim to an 8th dan from a style I am interested in knowing more about.

DAC and you have tried to make some point about your skills and how it doesn’t matter that you claim rank in a system.

I think it does matter.
If someone were kickboxing Champion of the World and claimed he was a member of my dojo and wasn’t, regardless of his skills or accomplishments I wouldn’t care for it.


I would rather not keep pounding this into the ground and wouldn’t have but my name was mentioned by MRJ on this topic in a now closed thread.
Like I said before, MRJ’s non-answer, or “pleading the 5th” as it were, confirms my previous suspicions.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by chufeng
This thread has completely side-stepped the original question...

Since it was a comment I made elsewhere that sparked this thread, let me share what I found.

The book that I was referring to was written by David Lowry. It is titled: Sword and Brush: the spirit of the martial arts.

Chapter 6, page 30 & 31 (in my copy).

"It was not until the strife-ridden Muromachi age (ca. 1300-1600) that warrior clans began to organize their professional skills, to polish those that were most effective, and to transmit them to other clan members. Such evolution allowed learning from the accumulated experiences of others. It was the foundation of the martial ryu.
The martial ryu assumed distinctive identities based upon specific strategies they adopted...some ryu were the exclusive domain of a single clan or fiefdom...Yet, no matter what the course or breadth of instruction, the form of transmitting skills through the ryu was-and, in those still extant, is-consistent. They are passed on from one generation to the next, preserved as a living structure..."

This was the first book I read regarding that term...however, I have since read additional information that a ryu must pass through more than one generation to be a ryu...

I'll still need to look further for that reference...but I haven't forgotten the original question...and I'm not sure how we got to this point in the thread, but let's try and keep it on topic or we'll need to start another to finish the discussion of the original question...

:asian:
chufeng



Sorry, I am not a big fan of Dave Lowry.

What he is talking about here is techniques were collected bit by bit over generations and then organized systemized and then formed into a Ryu. It only took several generations because of the slow process.
Swordsman of the time didn’t have extensive knowledge of various techniques and had to acquire them slowly from various places………such as real fights or from trusted individuals.
So basically any collection of techniques that has become formulated and systemized can be considered a “ryu”.
 
R

RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I've heard the same thing, though I think it was in a discussion on E-budo regarding other arts... There is, I think, a requirement by the Japanese governmental organization that monitors and registers MAs as authentic, for a MA to be considered a "ryu."

I know that doesn't help to authenticate this theory, but at least it isn't one isolated comment...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


What you are talking about is one of several “good ‘ol boy” networks in Budo here.
They would like to be the end all beat all in saying who is the real deal and who is not Japanese Budo.
However I know for a fact that they have some charlatans amongst them and all that is really required for entry is lots of lip gloss on backsides.
 
A

A.R.K.

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Nope, never stated such a thing

That was Chufeng, my apologies.



I would rather not keep pounding this into the ground and wouldn’t have but my name was mentioned by MRJ on this topic in a now closed thread.

Remember, it wasn't an attack and had nothing to do with any ranking I have. It concerned the number of kata in a system. I stated three but gave you credit by name for an alternative opinion. That is not an attack and I stated so later to clarify the post. I honored you by giving you credit for an alternative. How you took it wrong, I do not know. You rehashed the whole rank thing not I. I don't even list rank in my profile, just systems I've trained in.

One does not need to belong to any organization for credibility. But since your opinion on this differs I believe it should settle the whole issue. My rankings come from recognition in my country, Europe and the Middle East, not Okinawa. Since you feel they must come from Okinawa then in your eyes they are not credible. Others however do feel they are credible. Think of me as having no rank if you like. I'm fine either way as it changes not a thing.


Like I said before, MRJ’s non-answer, or “pleading the 5th” as it were, confirms my previous suspicions.

Once again, many here do know and are satisfied with my credentials. I just have chosen not to share with you because of your behavior. It could easily have been otherwise, but you chose differently. Since my credentials come from other parts of the world that you don't recognize it's a mute point. I'm still who I am and teach what I teach and seek peace and friendship from and with all. You included. But as always the choice is yours.

Yili 1, I'm glad some of my posts intrigued you. I think we all have much to share here. Stay safe to you and all.

:asian:
 
A

A.R.K.

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Yiliquan 1,

MRJ, here's my take - you have knowledge. I don't begrudge you that. The only burr there has ever really been under my saddle was that you felt you deserved better treatment than you got when you first came on this board... Whatever. I admit most folks get greeted a little more friendly-like, but then again most folks don't claim to have started their own style, nor do they claim lofty grades in multiple styles... Whatever.
Some of your posts have intrigued me. Some have had some good info. Some have been a little too "pat myself on the back for the cool stuff I have done/experienced/seen." Whatever.

Your earlier term e-mugged was appropriate. Everyone always reponds better to friendly conversation, and I am no different. I think someone jumping on me in a series of 10 seperate,hostile posts before I had a fair opportunity to respond is a bit much.

Nothing wrong with starting a new system if your motives are sincere. Many people have done so in the past and many more will do so in the future. Because of this you now enjoy the system you currently train in. And why shouldn't you? It's valid and means something to you. No one should attempt to take that away from you or disparage it simply because it is new.

My rank and credentials are not as important to me as what I can do or teach. If it bothers anyone then my advice is to simply disregard them. I'm not scamming people for money, I'm not displaying them on the wall either. As I've said, I charge very little and some I teach for free. Teaching is my passion. I feel my motivations are in order.

If you feel I have patted myself on the back, my apologies. I try to word my posts carefully. If I have done this, please show me where I have done so and we can discuss the matter. Take care.

:asian:
 

DAC..florida

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Originally posted by Yiliquan1
No. I think what Yilisifu said was that people that claim to teach an art that is governed by a particular organization should be registered with that organization. He didn't say that they should be registered with their "root country."



No, the legitimacy of that teacher isn't necessarily called into question, but it sure looks bad when he claims to teach a style that is recognized as being taught and governed by a particular organization and his name is nowhere to be found in their rosters... It brings to mind questions that must be answered to the satisfaction of anyone asking - otherwise, that instructor will bear the brunt of public distrust. The same can be said of non-MA situations with similar issues.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:



Fine my mistake country, organization whatever. I think you got my point wich was that not every set of a style has to be affiliated with the original org., and if thier not does that mean that there not legit?


Public distrust no! At least not in florida. Your distrust maybe, thats your opinion and you are entitled to it.
 
A

A.R.K.

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I think the point is that it is a mistake to believe that any organization governs or can lay claim to govern any particular style or system. Just because an organization claims to does not make it true. None of my Pangainoon instructors were asian. They were American, European and Middle Eastern. They simply trained in and taught a system, they did not feel the need to pledge loyalty to any particular organization. Someone recognized them for their training and they in turn recognized me when they felt it was due. Nothing wrong with this.

For any organization to claim anyone not of their organization is not legitimate is imho very arrogant. They cannot enforce any such policy and in my opinion is merely a ploy to fill their coffers. No one needs organizational affiliation. They may chose it, but there is no requirment.

:asian:
 

KennethKu

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I suppose I am now going to get to gether with a couple friends of mine over the weekend, and bestow onto each other the title of Grandmaster and then award each other 9th Dan in Shotokan. When any one ask, we will just tell them that our Shotokan does not give a hoot to the Shotokan HQ in Japan. That our titles are recognized by those we choose to associate with. And if you don't like it, you can come over and kiss our a$$. Sounds like a great idea......
 
A

A.R.K.

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I suppose if it makes you feel good and you can look yourself in the mirror it would be fine. Since no one here has done this it's a mute point. There is far more to this world than Japan. Quite a few countries have a solid martial arts tradition and can take pride in their accomplishments. If you need a GM or an organization from Japan to recognize you to give your accomplishments value...wonderful. By all means :) I feel the qualities of the GM's and organizations in other countries are equal to their Japanese counterparts. If anyone feels otherwise they are welcome to their opinions.

You elude to a bunch of guys sitting around 'awarding' themselves and each other. Simply not the case and simply another example of looking at the unrealistic worst rather than trying to understand the actual truth.


Public distrust no! At least not in florida. Your distrust maybe, thats your opinion and you are entitled to it.

The public? No. All of my students are aware of the 'debate' here between both parties. No one has left and in fact I have gain some by word-of-mouth. Personal distrust perhaps based on other issues, but not public. In fact I have gained a 2nd Dan in Uechi-Ryu and a 4th Dan in Tora Soma Do since the whole thing began. They have been around the block for quite some time and are quite satisfied with my credentials, training and teaching. Otherwise they wouldn't have sought me ought. Doesn't make me special, but I offer training that they desire. Funny thing is that the only people 'offended' are the few here that have no firsthand knowledge of me. The ones that do know me personally are quite satisfied. And many as I've said have extensive MA's backgrounds and are familar with the MA's community. Unfair to judge someone over the internet. More unfair to impose restrictive regulations such as Oriental organizational membership on a style practiced worldwide.

:asian:
 
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