Run away from no-mask people

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dvcochran

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You're arguing with children. They are intrinsically unreasonable and no amount of common sense, evidence, or logic will convince them. They are quite simply barren ground for reasonable discussion. And until they mature, it's much easier to let rant and rave and carry on, and we can just advocate for things that will (hopefully) save them from themselves.

There are so many folks on this forum who are reasonable and mature. Much healthier to discuss things with them, and actually learn a thing or two, than get mired in a trip through crazy town.
Like I have said many times now you are consistent. You name call and disparage when things do not go your way. Childish action.
Surely even you understand a smidge of elegant diatribe is still just diatribe.
 

jobo

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Honestly, if a hospital was going to engage in Medicare fraud, that seems like such a... petty and lowball way to go about it anyway. There was a local case here where a medical practice was engaging in Medicare fraud, by billing Medicare for a large number of procedures that they didn't actually do. IIRC, they'd see a patient, do some procedure, and then also bill Medicare for some other procedures. They got many, many millions of dollars this way. Now the doctors are in prison, of course, because Medicare does check up on things. Faking a few dozen Covid cases to get an extra $7,000 per person seems like it'd be a pretty amateur criminal enterprise. Like is that really worth the risk of never being able to work again?
how are medicare goibg to check yp when the bodies have either been burried or cremated,?
 

WaterGal

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But if you read the article I attached you will see hospitals are 'playing within the rules' by adding Covid to the diagnosis, when it really has nothing to do with it.

I read the article you linked to. It said there is absolutely no evidence that that's ever happened in the US, and that even the guy who made the meme/video isn't saying it's actually happened.

To be clear, I am not questioning the integrity of doctors in large since they are typically not the ones responsible for billing.

So are you saying that hospital administrators are engaging in felony Medicare fraud so their hospital can make an extra ten or twenty thousand a year? Or medical billing employees?
 

Gerry Seymour

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Just plain denial. Like I said before, and will say again, that was just the first article I came to. Anyone who chooses to even moderately search this stuff, and lives in some realm of reality, can find this stuff with ease. That you choose not to in on you.

What difference does it make that this article was about only one area of insurance and health care payment? Why would any thinking person not understand if this is being done in one area it would be fare across insurance/payment mediums? Are the amounts different? I would imagine most certainly worse for private insurance.

Shouldn't the bigger offense here be that since Medicare is paid from working people's payroll tax and federal income tax for all the non working people, isn't this this the height of double-dipping?
Again, what you showed was that there was potential. Where's your proof of widespread fraud?

There is no Covid bonus in private insurance. The pay is per procedure, not per ailment. My wife works in medical billing, and I've asked. You should try asking someone who knows. (And, yeah, she'd have to be part of that conspiracy you're promoting.)
 

Gerry Seymour

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we need to know what ny risk of catchibg the virus is before you can say a mask reduces it by 30%

its not me thats obfusccating,
tou have abandand the 30% claim and changed the topic completly

so, a question

if you dont kbow what my risk of catching the virus is, how can you say a mask reduces that by any% youve now elected to make up for the purpose of this discusion
I never made that claim. I simply passed along a number because someone asked what numbers I'd seen. Want to see what their calculations were? Go look it up. But you won't, because it might say something you don't want to know.
 

Gerry Seymour

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This is very bad logic until you know the hard numbers for COD.
To answer one of your previous questions with a question; show me where stats are Not getting blended? And to give an answer with your own answer, you Can't.
So if this is sound logic (which it isn't) explain the countless articles similar to the one I recently posted?

It would seem it is you attempting to obfuscate with your very circular answer.
No. You don't need to know the infection rate to know the death rate, if you're measuring it at the death rate. That's like saying you can't know how big a car's gas tank is without knowing what MPG it gets. Death rate can be measured (not mortality rate for the infected - death rate in the general population).

I _know_ you studied this somewhere along the way. You do know this.
 

Gerry Seymour

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But if you read the article I attached you will see hospitals are 'playing within the rules' by adding Covid to the diagnosis, when it really has nothing to do with it.
To my knowledge there is not even a standard vehicle in place to confirm case classification.
To be clear, I am not questioning the integrity of doctors in large since they are typically not the ones responsible for billing.
I didn't see an article that showed where hospitals were playing with the numbers (committing fraud). Did I miss it, or are you misreading the USA Today fact check article you posted, which explicitly said there was no evidence of this widespread practice?
 

JowGaWolf

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I read the article you linked to. It said there is absolutely no evidence that that's ever happened in the US, and that even the guy who made the meme/video isn't saying it's actually happened.
Thank you. I tried to point that out to him from that same article. I even pointed out that the guy original saw a meme and ran with it. So from the very beginning he wasn't looking at data. The guy picked up his assumption from a picture found on social media.

I don't know how he can't read that in the article. This world has gone crazy
 
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Just on the insurance fraud note, i will wait until after and when proper investigation can be done on death cetificates etc. given services are disrupted currently and you can commisiona investigation of a relitives death certificate and faking them isnt uncommon or unheard of. that and insurance companies etc do their own invesitgations if money is to be awarded and the like. So just wait until a proper investigation is to be able to be done on the dipsuted cases. Given there are i think several hundred thousand of them across the U.S, it might take some time, no doubt some of those will eb fraudulent or at least investigated to see their legiitmatacy.


That and i think some of the people who give Death certifiates in the U.S are a little ehh, or the positions can vary by county greatly. (in regards to compotence and corruption) When ever money is involved, just presume some degree of corruption, its a pretty good rule of thumb.
 

jobo

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I never made that claim. I simply passed along a number because someone asked what numbers I'd seen. Want to see what their calculations were? Go look it up. But you won't, because it might say something you don't want to know.
occording to the bbc, the death to infection rate is one in a thousand in the uk, it only makes a statement with no back ground data, but they have got it from somewhere.

afyer hust one day of administering this very safe vaccine the uk regulators have have warned peopke woth comprmised immune systems in that they have allegies, that the vacine isnt safe for them, rraely one day to discover this, just what was happening in the trials? i wonder what they will find after a week or two?

as it people with comprmised imnune systems that are specifically at risk, one wonders at the effectivness of a vacine they cant use
 

dvcochran

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I didn't see an article that showed where hospitals were playing with the numbers (committing fraud). Did I miss it, or are you misreading the USA Today fact check article you posted, which explicitly said there was no evidence of this widespread practice?
I suppose it is quite easy not to see what is right in front of you when you are not looking for it.
But I didn't figure for the niave type. It is the typical informational article where the writing is laid out plainly and clearly enough for everyone to process. Then the normal legal mumbo jumbo or appropriate qualifiers to keep the writer or paper out of trouble.
No one is saying it's not unsavory. But that doesn't make it any less true. Just read the article man.
 

dvcochran

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No. You don't need to know the infection rate to know the death rate, if you're measuring it at the death rate. That's like saying you can't know how big a car's gas tank is without knowing what MPG it gets. Death rate can be measured (not mortality rate for the infected - death rate in the general population).

I _know_ you studied this somewhere along the way. You do know this.

death rate
/deTH rt/

noun
  1. the ratio of deaths to the population of a particular area or during a particular period of time, usually calculated as the number of deaths per one thousand people per year.
mor繚tal繚i繚ty
/m繫rtald/

noun
  1. death, especially on a large scale.
You are correct that it is gross data. But you are a little late to the dance. Several, several posts back, possibly in a different thread the death rate stats were posted for as far back as the last decade. Again, showing this year is as low as the 2008-ish dip. I suppose this would make mortality rate irrelevant for this year.

None the less the point to my reply was the permanent inability to parse the data categorically which could be argued in a weird way to say it has nothing to do with death rate. Even though those are the very deaths we are talking about.
Another insensitivity in all of this I suppose.
 

dvcochran

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Thank you. I tried to point that out to him from that same article. I even pointed out that the guy original saw a meme and ran with it. So from the very beginning he wasn't looking at data. The guy picked up his assumption from a picture found on social media.

I don't know how he can't read that in the article. This world has gone crazy

Just do the work and look for information outside your clear and personal bias.

What you don't seem to understand is that I am not mad at doctors or even hospitals. There are people paid to game the system in every business type I can think of, with very noble titles like accountant, etc... It does get very distasteful when it crosses over into genre typically known for very high ethics.
When the 'gaming' massively compounds the data for a Global pandemic, this becomes something altogether different. If this thing is as bad as some of you really want it to be I would say this action borders on being an aid to genocide since we are Way past the point where science would usually rely fully on control groups.
Too many of you are looking at this through the head of a needle.
 

dvcochran

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I read the article you linked to. It said there is absolutely no evidence that that's ever happened in the US, and that even the guy who made the meme/video isn't saying it's actually happened.



So are you saying that hospital administrators are engaging in felony Medicare fraud so their hospital can make an extra ten or twenty thousand a year? Or medical billing employees?

Yes. In some form. I cannot say whether it is administrators or bean counters or the stock boards, but they are all complicit.
There are countless articles across the country. Here is one from California regarding $69M in Covid fraud. COVID-19 Fraud Investigations Begin | Medtrade
 

Steve

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I read the article you linked to. It said there is absolutely no evidence that that's ever happened in the US, and that even the guy who made the meme/video isn't saying it's actually happened.



So are you saying that hospital administrators are engaging in felony Medicare fraud so their hospital can make an extra ten or twenty thousand a year? Or medical billing employees?
Thank you. I tried to point that out to him from that same article. I even pointed out that the guy original saw a meme and ran with it. So from the very beginning he wasn't looking at data. The guy picked up his assumption from a picture found on social media.

I don't know how he can't read that in the article. This world has gone crazy
So, on one hand, we have side eyed conspiracy theories that are spread without evidence or even any actual assertions from the folks who are being quoted. I mean, the entire article in question is a fiction that is being discussed as a hypothetical question. "Jensen didn't explicitly make that claim. He simply suggested there is an "avenue" to do so now that "plausible" COVID-19, not just laboratory-confirmed, cases can be greenlighted for Medicare payment and eligible for the 20% add-on allowed under the relief act."

And on the other hand, we have actual evidence and documentation of how folks are actually profiteering on the pandemic, whether it's skimming from the paycheck protection program (PPP)

Donald Trump and Jared Kushner receive $3.65m in PPP loan money, report says
Follow the Money
New PPP Loan Data Reveals Most Of The $525 Billion Given Out Went To Larger BusinessesAnd A Few With Trump, Kushner Ties

Or using privileged information to make millions on the stock market based.
Sen. Richard Burr and the coronavirus insider trading scandal, explained

Or how billionaires like Bezos and others are profiteering:
Pandemic 'Profiteers': Why Billionaires Are Getting Richer During An Economic Crisis : Consider This from NPR

I mean, if folks are well positioned and inclined to profit on the misery of others, there are some really effective ways to go about it.

All of that said, I appreciate that conservatives are pointing out one of the major issues with the American healthcare system, which is that it is a for-profit system. If you removed the imperative to operate medical facilities as businesses, you will remove the incentive for driving profit. So, the next time folks talk about single payer healthcare or a public option, (and it looks like a public option is very likely ) I expect conservatives' hearty endorsement.
 

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