What rules do you have for your students when they have to engage in a fight outside the school? What rules are in place when inside the school during sparring? Have you ever broken your cardinal rule and if so, why?
Rules of engagement
- Thread starter terryl965
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Earl Weiss
Senior Master
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Outside. When faced with a very real threat to their safety or the safety of others, do whatever is neccessary to preserve health and safety.
Inside; You are responsible for your opponents well being as well as your own. The level of contact should be such that while there may be discomfort, it should not cause anything that requires medical attention, but accidents will happen.
On a couple of occasions (I was younger then) I had to be the enforcer. After repeated cautions a student. Usualy a teenage or early 20's new black belt or red belt continued to use lower ranks for target practice and excessive force when sparring. I then took the opportunity to show them what it felt like to be on the recieving end of what they were doing.
As General Choi was fond of saying "Pain is a wonderful teeacher, but no one wants to go to his class."
Inside; You are responsible for your opponents well being as well as your own. The level of contact should be such that while there may be discomfort, it should not cause anything that requires medical attention, but accidents will happen.
On a couple of occasions (I was younger then) I had to be the enforcer. After repeated cautions a student. Usualy a teenage or early 20's new black belt or red belt continued to use lower ranks for target practice and excessive force when sparring. I then took the opportunity to show them what it felt like to be on the recieving end of what they were doing.
As General Choi was fond of saying "Pain is a wonderful teeacher, but no one wants to go to his class."
For adults, we discuss ethical use of TKD skills and they are expected to act with good judgment and integrity. For kids, the guidelines are, roughly, "if you use this against anyone other than an adult you don't know (or who hasn't been cleared by your parents) who is trying to take you somewhere, there's going to be serious trouble." Situations in which use of TKD skills are an appropriate response, and those in which they are not, are discussed regularly.
It depends on whether we're wearing pads or not - without pads, no contact for color belts, light contact for black belts; with pads, light to medium contact for all; if black belts want to spar harder, they do so after class, with another senior watching to be sure it doesn't get out of hand.
No. But I would if doing so would save another person. The thing is, every situation is different, and so is every person who could respond to it. There are too many variables to give a more precise answer.
In class sparring rules include to wear gear all the time, and light to medium contact 9which is relative) On the other hand, when feelings get hurt you are to stop sparring, and you have the right to do so at any time, be it that you are getting mad or your opponent.
With the kids it's usually the hard hitters who cry the most if they collect some of their own medicine...after making sure they are ok they get a talking to.
As to outside the school I was - thankfully - not in the position to have to make this decision but I hope I can stay true to the principle of least necessary force.
As to the kids, in this society you sadly have to teach the kids to turn all four cheeks in all but the most dire situations. However, being somewhat old fashioned, I do support my generally kind and peaceful child to not take unnecessary crap.
With the kids it's usually the hard hitters who cry the most if they collect some of their own medicine...after making sure they are ok they get a talking to.
As to outside the school I was - thankfully - not in the position to have to make this decision but I hope I can stay true to the principle of least necessary force.
As to the kids, in this society you sadly have to teach the kids to turn all four cheeks in all but the most dire situations. However, being somewhat old fashioned, I do support my generally kind and peaceful child to not take unnecessary crap.
Laurentkd
Master Black Belt
We teach all of our students "walk, talk fight". Meaning you try to just walk away first, then try to talk your way out of the situation, then if you can't do either of those, fight without using excessive force. Unlike the local schools, if we have a kid get in a fight who has followed these rules and is only defending himself, he isn't in trouble with us.
Inside the dojang the rule is the senior spars at or just a shade higher than the juniors level. The junior needs to learn from the senior- that can not happen if the senior is going to hard or too soft against the junior.
I broke that cardinal rule once. We had a transfer black belt who was beating up on younger black belts in sparring (we are talking a 22 year old 6 foot 3 guy going against 15 year old black belts). When it was my turn to spar him I took it upon myself to tag him a couple times in the head real good (it was controlled, but I made sure he felt it). When my instructor saw, he asked why I was going so hard. I told him "I am just matching the contact I have been seeing him use". The bully then said "I guess I didn't realize I was going that hard." and I said ok, and took it down a notch. The bully changed his level from then on. Afterwards I got several big smiles from my juniors, but my instructor cornered me and said he knew what I was doing and it was my responsibility as the senior to go at this guy on his level, and that I ruined his opportunity to use my match against this guy as an example for how you ought to spar your juniors. Those smiles from my juniors didn't mean much at that point...
Inside the dojang the rule is the senior spars at or just a shade higher than the juniors level. The junior needs to learn from the senior- that can not happen if the senior is going to hard or too soft against the junior.
I broke that cardinal rule once. We had a transfer black belt who was beating up on younger black belts in sparring (we are talking a 22 year old 6 foot 3 guy going against 15 year old black belts). When it was my turn to spar him I took it upon myself to tag him a couple times in the head real good (it was controlled, but I made sure he felt it). When my instructor saw, he asked why I was going so hard. I told him "I am just matching the contact I have been seeing him use". The bully then said "I guess I didn't realize I was going that hard." and I said ok, and took it down a notch. The bully changed his level from then on. Afterwards I got several big smiles from my juniors, but my instructor cornered me and said he knew what I was doing and it was my responsibility as the senior to go at this guy on his level, and that I ruined his opportunity to use my match against this guy as an example for how you ought to spar your juniors. Those smiles from my juniors didn't mean much at that point...
Earl Weiss
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We teach all of our students "walk, talk fight". Meaning you try to just walk away first, then try to talk your way out of the situation, then if you can't do either of those, fight without using excessive force. Unlike the local schools, if we have a kid get in a fight who has followed these rules and is only defending himself, he isn't in trouble with us.
Inside the dojang the rule is the senior spars at or just a shade higher than the juniors level. The junior needs to learn from the senior- that can not happen if the senior is going to hard or too soft against the junior.
I broke that cardinal rule once. We had a transfer black belt who was beating up on younger black belts in sparring (we are talking a 22 year old 6 foot 3 guy going against 15 year old black belts). When it was my turn to spar him I took it upon myself to tag him a couple times in the head real good (it was controlled, but I made sure he felt it). When my instructor saw, he asked why I was going so hard. I told him "I am just matching the contact I have been seeing him use". The bully then said "I guess I didn't realize I was going that hard." and I said ok, and took it down a notch. The bully changed his level from then on. Afterwards I got several big smiles from my juniors, but my instructor cornered me and said he knew what I was doing and it was my responsibility as the senior to go at this guy on his level, and that I ruined his opportunity to use my match against this guy as an example for how you ought to spar your juniors. Those smiles from my juniors didn't mean much at that point...
Problem is a lot of larger people really do not understand what the size difference means. A well built 180 lb man would have to face someone well built and 270 lbs to experience the same % difference as a 120lb person feels with the 180 pounder. That rarely happens.
We teach all of our students "walk, talk fight". Meaning you try to just walk away first, then try to talk your way out of the situation, then if you can't do either of those, fight without using excessive force. Unlike the local schools, if we have a kid get in a fight who has followed these rules and is only defending himself, he isn't in trouble with us.
Inside the dojang the rule is the senior spars at or just a shade higher than the juniors level. The junior needs to learn from the senior- that can not happen if the senior is going to hard or too soft against the junior.
I broke that cardinal rule once. We had a transfer black belt who was beating up on younger black belts in sparring (we are talking a 22 year old 6 foot 3 guy going against 15 year old black belts). When it was my turn to spar him I took it upon myself to tag him a couple times in the head real good (it was controlled, but I made sure he felt it). When my instructor saw, he asked why I was going so hard. I told him "I am just matching the contact I have been seeing him use". The bully then said "I guess I didn't realize I was going that hard." and I said ok, and took it down a notch. The bully changed his level from then on. Afterwards I got several big smiles from my juniors, but my instructor cornered me and said he knew what I was doing and it was my responsibility as the senior to go at this guy on his level, and that I ruined his opportunity to use my match against this guy as an example for how you ought to spar your juniors. Those smiles from my juniors didn't mean much at that point...
While I agree with your intentions, I wonder about your interpretation of the other BB's actions as "bullying" - if it only took one encounter for him to realize how hard he was hitting, then it's possible he really didn't realize, and since you describe him as a "transfer BB", he may have been using the level of contact appropriate to his previous school.
I understand why you did what you did - but should a similar situation occur in the future, you might want to talk to the other person first, to make sure you are all using the same rules.
Outside - Do what it takes to go home.
Inside - It's a give qi take qi kinda thing. Work it out or I will.
Inside - It's a give qi take qi kinda thing. Work it out or I will.
Laurentkd
Master Black Belt
I do see what you are saying, but...
This guy had been around for about 6 months, I had actually trained with him at his old school, he had been spoken to, and he knew exactly what he was doing. He was out to try to impress people, against kids a head shorter than him and 6 years younger. He "realized" what he was doing when he finally went against someone he couldn't push around and suddenly it wasn't so much fun.
I've been around long enough to know the difference.
But you do make a very good point, there are definitely times when someone just needs to have something explained to them as they are adjusting to a new environment. :asian:
