It was brought up on another thread that restraining one's attacker might be preferable as a form of self defense before resorting to striking. I am not yet in my training (krav maga) at the point where I have learned how to do this...can anybody cite some examples of how to restrain an opponent for self protection, particularly if that opponent is larger/stronger than you? Would you consider restraint a good idea in this case?
Restraining as a form of self defense?
- Thread starter girlbug2
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KenpoTex
Senior Master
If you are truly in a "self defense" situation, i.e. one where you are in fear for your life or safety, attempting to restrain/control the attacker is foolish for a couple of reasons.
1. IMO, it takes much more skill to restrain someone using joint-locks or pressure points than it does to subdue or incapacitate them by striking or the use of a weapon or whatever. This is particularly true if there is a significant size/strength disparity.
2. You may have qualms about inflicting harm to them (hence your efforts to restrain/control them), or fear possible legal repercussions. However, they obviously have no problem doing harm to you. You are handicapping yourself by not "playing at the same level" that they are.
I also believe that many, if not most, methods of "restraining" someone (e.g. law-enforcement style defensive-tactics) are only suitable for belligerent, or "resisting" as opposed to "combative" subjects. In other words, such methods are not the appropriate choice when someone is actively trying to injure/kill you.
If you feel that an individual poses a serious threat to your safety, your goal is to either escape, or to eliminate their ability to cause you harm.
1. IMO, it takes much more skill to restrain someone using joint-locks or pressure points than it does to subdue or incapacitate them by striking or the use of a weapon or whatever. This is particularly true if there is a significant size/strength disparity.
2. You may have qualms about inflicting harm to them (hence your efforts to restrain/control them), or fear possible legal repercussions. However, they obviously have no problem doing harm to you. You are handicapping yourself by not "playing at the same level" that they are.
I also believe that many, if not most, methods of "restraining" someone (e.g. law-enforcement style defensive-tactics) are only suitable for belligerent, or "resisting" as opposed to "combative" subjects. In other words, such methods are not the appropriate choice when someone is actively trying to injure/kill you.
If you feel that an individual poses a serious threat to your safety, your goal is to either escape, or to eliminate their ability to cause you harm.
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
My thoughts,
The Marine combatives system (MCMAP) teaches restraints at a basic level, and I've not heard too many people talking about 'it's complete bs', so there must be some merit.
Something I truelly hate about the majority (not all, but the majority) of RBSD instructors/schools/systems teach only 'this is what you do when you're fighting some one who wants to kill you!' The Problem is, that kind of situation has a small chance of happening to anyone (like 5% of the US population will be violently attacked in there life time, that includes alot of situations when the smart thing to do is just give in; you're car isn't worth it). So, unless you're going out and getting involved with stupid people, and do stupid things to other stupid people are alot bigger then you, you'll probably never really need to know the exact amount of pressure needed to break someones neck.
That in mind, it does happen, and is something you should know. However, the odds are much greater that you'll be in a situation where someone is going to half attack you, without life threatening intent. Such as some drunk idiot swinging at you. In that situation, beating the person to a pulp is a bad idea. In that situation, the best thing to do is to restrain the person.
While joint locks and the lot do take more skill then just swinging, they can also be more effective. A single punch can hurt for only so long, but a single wrist lock can be applied and pain retained for as long as is needed. Also, I'm aware of no joint lock or restraining technique that cann't be turned into a break if needed.
That size can massivly inhibit the ability to lock someone is not true. Infact, the strength of the attacker can make a take down more effective/easier with practice. No attack can be mastered in a day, week, or month. It can take years of training to ever be truelly prepared for an attack, even if you are going with the simplest possible attacks.
Another reason to use joint locks is legal matters. The common idea of 'escalation of force' applies. There's no reason to pull out a glock and shot someone, when you can just as easily punch in the face, less legal problems. While 'not playing at there level' may get you more messed up, you don't run nearly as much of a risk of facing legal problems for excessive force. And generally, it comes off better to the cops if you tell them that you tried to restrain the person, before you cracked there ribs with a pipe.
Another though is weapons. Most of the restraining/joint locking techniques I know can be used to disarm someone if needed. Punching there face in cann't do that as well. And besides, if your opponent is armed, and you're not, you're screwed. As the saying goes 'don't bring a knife to a gun fight'. The same applies to a grab. The bodies natural reflex to a physical attacker is (generally) to tense up. So, if some one has a hold of your wrist (probably going into punch you), and you start punching them, they're probably going to hold on tighter, so if they fall, you might as well. In that situation, a wrist lock would be best. And there various techniques for when someone grabs you, and goes into punch you.
A final thought is against multiple attackers. When someone grabs your wrists from behind, and another attacks from the front, you're kind of screwed unless you have some idea of how to deal with that situation. Or if one person has hold of one wrist, and another person has ahold of the other. Someone else comes into attack, again, there are joint locks that can be adapted.
Do what you gotta do though.
The Marine combatives system (MCMAP) teaches restraints at a basic level, and I've not heard too many people talking about 'it's complete bs', so there must be some merit.
Something I truelly hate about the majority (not all, but the majority) of RBSD instructors/schools/systems teach only 'this is what you do when you're fighting some one who wants to kill you!' The Problem is, that kind of situation has a small chance of happening to anyone (like 5% of the US population will be violently attacked in there life time, that includes alot of situations when the smart thing to do is just give in; you're car isn't worth it). So, unless you're going out and getting involved with stupid people, and do stupid things to other stupid people are alot bigger then you, you'll probably never really need to know the exact amount of pressure needed to break someones neck.
That in mind, it does happen, and is something you should know. However, the odds are much greater that you'll be in a situation where someone is going to half attack you, without life threatening intent. Such as some drunk idiot swinging at you. In that situation, beating the person to a pulp is a bad idea. In that situation, the best thing to do is to restrain the person.
While joint locks and the lot do take more skill then just swinging, they can also be more effective. A single punch can hurt for only so long, but a single wrist lock can be applied and pain retained for as long as is needed. Also, I'm aware of no joint lock or restraining technique that cann't be turned into a break if needed.
That size can massivly inhibit the ability to lock someone is not true. Infact, the strength of the attacker can make a take down more effective/easier with practice. No attack can be mastered in a day, week, or month. It can take years of training to ever be truelly prepared for an attack, even if you are going with the simplest possible attacks.
Another reason to use joint locks is legal matters. The common idea of 'escalation of force' applies. There's no reason to pull out a glock and shot someone, when you can just as easily punch in the face, less legal problems. While 'not playing at there level' may get you more messed up, you don't run nearly as much of a risk of facing legal problems for excessive force. And generally, it comes off better to the cops if you tell them that you tried to restrain the person, before you cracked there ribs with a pipe.
Another though is weapons. Most of the restraining/joint locking techniques I know can be used to disarm someone if needed. Punching there face in cann't do that as well. And besides, if your opponent is armed, and you're not, you're screwed. As the saying goes 'don't bring a knife to a gun fight'. The same applies to a grab. The bodies natural reflex to a physical attacker is (generally) to tense up. So, if some one has a hold of your wrist (probably going into punch you), and you start punching them, they're probably going to hold on tighter, so if they fall, you might as well. In that situation, a wrist lock would be best. And there various techniques for when someone grabs you, and goes into punch you.
A final thought is against multiple attackers. When someone grabs your wrists from behind, and another attacks from the front, you're kind of screwed unless you have some idea of how to deal with that situation. Or if one person has hold of one wrist, and another person has ahold of the other. Someone else comes into attack, again, there are joint locks that can be adapted.
Do what you gotta do though.
I've given this some thought to applications in my job. Only once did I have a customer get in-my-face and basically it took everything I had to restrain myself and take a step back from him and hold out a warning hand.
But people do go on tours inebriated and the possibility of someone going off is there... minimal but still there. Striking customers is generally NOT a good idea in any circumstances so restraint would be in order here.
I do know a few good joint locks that would change an individual's mind should they want to get belligerent with myself, another guide or with another customer (family or stranger). It would largely depend upon the situation. If it's against me then I still exercise my right to SD regardless. If it's against another guide then I would provide an assist to separate the two and still use restraining methods. If it's against another customer then I'm by then obligated to interfere because the customer's safety and well being are my responsibility while in the cave.
What I would use largely depends upon the person I'm confronted with. I do have mini-mags on my person that would make great kubotans <sic> and my own personal 2 D cell mag-light that would be a greater influence to "calm down!". All of that without striking the person.
But people do go on tours inebriated and the possibility of someone going off is there... minimal but still there. Striking customers is generally NOT a good idea in any circumstances so restraint would be in order here.
I do know a few good joint locks that would change an individual's mind should they want to get belligerent with myself, another guide or with another customer (family or stranger). It would largely depend upon the situation. If it's against me then I still exercise my right to SD regardless. If it's against another guide then I would provide an assist to separate the two and still use restraining methods. If it's against another customer then I'm by then obligated to interfere because the customer's safety and well being are my responsibility while in the cave.
What I would use largely depends upon the person I'm confronted with. I do have mini-mags on my person that would make great kubotans <sic> and my own personal 2 D cell mag-light that would be a greater influence to "calm down!". All of that without striking the person.
From my bouncing, I found rear chokes/sleeper techs to be of great use. Takes less training to learn and you have less problems with a person's possible high pain threshold (be it alcohol induced or natural). Every person needs to breathe and constricting the blood-flow to the brain helps.
Get some decent training on how to position an attacker and a decent rear choke hold. I use a modified version of a BJJ choke I learned many years ago. I would love to give you more on the how's, but the written word would really not be enough. It must be shown.
Get some decent training on how to position an attacker and a decent rear choke hold. I use a modified version of a BJJ choke I learned many years ago. I would love to give you more on the how's, but the written word would really not be enough. It must be shown.
I really like the kubotan. Simple to use and comes with a key ring if legality is a problem as in Australia and the UK. It can be used from behind to pull someone off another, used on the wist as shown in this little YouTube clip or pressed into the back to remove somebody from the premises if control is required. Most of the techniques employed can be done with the fingers or nuckles if you train to know how.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tFIXJwlozs&feature=related (sorry about the language but it is self explanatory) :asian:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tFIXJwlozs&feature=related (sorry about the language but it is self explanatory) :asian:
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
I actually consider 'restraining' often times superior in self-defense situations......not that striking doesn't have it's place.........my favorite 'restraint' is the 'neck restraint'.........often called the rear-naked choke, as Zoran has already pointed out.
Of course i'm a police officer, and on the street 'restraining' looks 'humane' while 'striking' looks 'excessive'..........looks don't necessarily mean anything to the person on the receiving end, but it's EVERYTHING to the witnesses.
Of course i'm a police officer, and on the street 'restraining' looks 'humane' while 'striking' looks 'excessive'..........looks don't necessarily mean anything to the person on the receiving end, but it's EVERYTHING to the witnesses.
Many of the techniques taught in my style can be either restraint or destruction depending on the situation. By that I mean that the very same technique that I use to put a little pain into the joint of someone being aggressive to stop their negative actions (and hold them there until help arrives if need be) can be used to destroy the weapon of my attacker (a particular joint). It just depends on the situation and how much danger I feel that I'm in. It's that ability to have the extra damage control that I love about my art. Now, as has been pointed out it takes a long time to get profficient enough at the manipulations of joint locks and restraints to make them effective. You also have to take the time to learn to flow from one lock or another should the first one not work. From a purely legal standpoint I prefer the locks. If you're going to hit someone you'd better hit full force. If you're going to lock them up, well, that's between you and how much they want to resist.
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, JUDO ....most likely falls in this catagory for restrainng.....KNOW Judo?
Aloha, "to unbalance is to have the edge"
Aloha, "to unbalance is to have the edge"
BLACK LION
Black Belt
Restraint is the simplest form of self defense as it requires on you ignore the situation entirely or use little "force"... Self defense is a broad term wiht many variables at many levels...
Hope that makes sense...
Hope that makes sense...
David43515
Master Black Belt
Restraint has it`s place, but against a larger stronger attacker (like the OP stated) I think is asking for trouble. A huge part of my training was in joint locks and holds. Most are much more effective when set up with strikes anyway, but many pain compliance holds just hurt, they don`t injure. Eventually a combative person`s anger overrides the pain and they try to hurt you again. Sooner or later you have to let them go anyway.
For most non-LEOs you have no obligation to hold someone in place. Just get away and be a good witness later. Against a bigger and stronger opponant who has already shown they`re willing to hurt you, use your restraint techniques momentarily to allow you to drive a knee into thier head or toss them into a table. Then run! Like someone already pointed out, while you`re restraining one attacker his buddy or a well-meaning bystander may clock you one that you can`t defend because your hands are tied up.
For most non-LEOs you have no obligation to hold someone in place. Just get away and be a good witness later. Against a bigger and stronger opponant who has already shown they`re willing to hurt you, use your restraint techniques momentarily to allow you to drive a knee into thier head or toss them into a table. Then run! Like someone already pointed out, while you`re restraining one attacker his buddy or a well-meaning bystander may clock you one that you can`t defend because your hands are tied up.
I happen to have a good Surefire Pen to use as a Kubiton if need be. I do wish it were on a key ring. Thanks for the clip, I'd like to practice that move.
Not currently studying Judo, but some of the principles are taught in the KM curriculum. I like Judo. My favorite American President was a Judo BB.
prokarateshop
Orange Belt
I have to say, in a true self defense situation, I would NEVER attempt to restrain and attacker. you have less than 30 seconds to save your life and GET away.. not Hold the attacked.
Hit and Run
Hit and Run
I actually consider 'restraining' often times superior in self-defense situations......not that striking doesn't have it's place.........my favorite 'restraint' is the 'neck restraint'.........often called the rear-naked choke, as Zoran has already pointed out.
Of course i'm a police officer, and on the street 'restraining' looks 'humane' while 'striking' looks 'excessive'..........looks don't necessarily mean anything to the person on the receiving end, but it's EVERYTHING to the witnesses.
I used to like the side choke. It is an arm triangle standing up. I did run into someone taller than me and all I did was bend them back over my hip and kept them walking backwards for them and me forewards so they could not get their balance and feet under them.
But, as mentioned I like to avoid being tied unless I am the one with all the friends who can come to my help.
I'd say that alot would depend on the situation. A drunk friend or family member at a party...in that case, I'd say that rather than knock the guys teeth out, if it could be defused with a come-along, lock, etc., then so be it. A guy who pulls a knife on you and demands your cash and car keys in the parking lot....no, my goal is to get away at that point, not try to tie the guy up and wait for the police.
Are locks effective? Sure. Of course, its going to take time to learn them, apply them, especially on someone who doesn't want to comply, and also to be able to flow from one thing to the next, in the event the first lock doesn't work.
Deaf Smith
Master of Arts
girlbug,
Now let's say you restrain someone who had a knife and tried to stab you. Ok, you have them in an armbar on the ground.... now what? How long are you going to hold them? 1 hr.?, 2 hrs.? All day? I mean, once you have them in a lock, what's the next move? Considering they want to kill you, you can't just let them go, right?
Now I can see using a restraining hold to stop someone who is just upset and needs to be imobile till they calm down, but not if they really are interested in doing you great harm.
Add on top of that if they are on drugs or just plain mad, you might be in for one heck of a rassle to get them restrained!
So, normaly I would not activly try to restain the other guy except with a KO, or worse.
Deaf
Now let's say you restrain someone who had a knife and tried to stab you. Ok, you have them in an armbar on the ground.... now what? How long are you going to hold them? 1 hr.?, 2 hrs.? All day? I mean, once you have them in a lock, what's the next move? Considering they want to kill you, you can't just let them go, right?
Now I can see using a restraining hold to stop someone who is just upset and needs to be imobile till they calm down, but not if they really are interested in doing you great harm.
Add on top of that if they are on drugs or just plain mad, you might be in for one heck of a rassle to get them restrained!
So, normaly I would not activly try to restain the other guy except with a KO, or worse.
Deaf
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
The standard Aikido follow up at that point is to take there knife and slit there wrist with it.
Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
I'd mention the Kenpo follow up, but, we don't have that kind of time. ;p
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