Respect

[FST]

I find the whole traditional vs. modern martial arts debate interesting but ultimately pointless. We are all martial artists and have chosen different ways to acheive our goals. I have been on both sides of the forms debate. I have had so called modern artists tell me that forms are a waste of time and have had so called traditional artists tell me that I was crazy for not doing forms. Both groups like to attack each other and tell the other that how they are training is wrong and the other should train like they do. If an artist decides to use a training tool then that is their decision and they should be respected for that. You may completely disagree with their reasoning for the tool choice but it is really none of anyones business what the person uses. When the debate fails to convince the other side then the attacks begin. One side will say that they have seen very fewer good artists from the opposing group and that they have very poor technique. Then this subsides and the argument starts again. Personally, I have seen great martial artists in both groups. I feel that we are all martial artists and we should respect each other and realize that not all people will use the same tools to reach their goals.

:soapbox:

 

[Cuentada]

Very well said.

 

[karatekid1975]

Vey good post, FST. I totally agree with you. Each person joins MA for different reasons, and they want different results. They even have different body types. They pick a martial art that fits them best, mentally and physically. I prefer a kicking art, but that doesn't make the next person wrong because they pick Judo or similar art. I'm not a fan of grappling, but I learn it anyway so I can be a well rounded martial artist. And I'm very open-minded when it comes to other arts. I'm just not a fan of the arguments that some cause. Like you said, the key word it RESPECT

 

[yilisifu]

I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but....

If someone states that he/she does not like kata (for instance), that's fine. But when they state that kata is useless, then they have made a (factual) statement with which I disagree and I step forward.
Of if someone prefers MMA to TMA, that's their business. BUT when someone states that one is superior to the other, then I will jump into the fray.

I enjoy this board because it is possible for me to learn from it and I can also teach others some of the things which I have learned after more than four decades of training. Some of the posters occasionally make an erroneous statement or an inappropriate assumption, and I try to set things straight insofar as my experience allows me.
I also enjoy being able to express my own views and to hear those of others.

But I don't believe that we can sit back, try to be "respectful", and allow erroneous thinking or training to continue. Being respectful involves not only being properly courteous to each other, but also being properly respectful of the arts in which we train and those who have gone before.

 

[FST]

Yilisifu,

I agree that you should not sit back and allow someone to put down the use of forms practice or any other practice for that matter. My problem is with those that will purposely find someone who does forms and then tell them that they are useless or someone who says that without forms you are wasting your time and will never become proficient. By respect I am saying that as martial artists we should know that different people will train different ways and that should be respected. If a person says that you are wrong for using forms then by all means you should state your opinion.

 

[Matt Stone]

FST -

I don't think anyone would argue your points with you... For the most part, I think folks here on MT manage to follow a lot of what you have said...

I am a staunch, die-hard traditionalist that happens to count a MMA advocate as one of my best friends and most inspirational teachers. Do we see eye to eye on our approaches to MA? Not always. But when we get past the techniques and into the theory and practice, we are even all the way to the gate.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

The main purpose of MA, whether it be TMA or MMA, is mainly for self-preservation. Two paths that diverge but lead to the same place.

 

[RyuShiKan]

FST,

You made some very good points.
I work with someone that trains with Nicholas Pettas of K-1 Fame, as well as have two friends that train with a Gracie dojo one of them a very tough individual (Yiliquan1 of course I am referring to Sgt. G. E., a person most people wouldn’t want to get in a situation with )………and when talking about martial arts NONE of us has ever said xxxxxx sucks or TMA or MMA sucks…..In fact all of us agree that it is the “individual” doing the art more than anything else.
I had the chance to work with a Sambo wrestler who happens to be a Special Forces guy ( the real kind that is active duty and has the "tab" on his left shoulder to prove it..........not the wannabee type that you see on the internet)........he likes what I teach and I like what he teaches, we found we had more in common than we both thought........except for one area.......he is in a hell of a lot better shape than I am!

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
The main purpose of MA, whether it be TMA or MMA, is mainly for self-preservation. Two paths that diverge but lead to the same place.

To me, they diverge greatly. It's like equating a trade school with a university. Yeah they both get you a job in the end, but think of how much extra education you get with the university.

WhiteBirch

 

[Matt Stone]

MMA and TMA are very different in their techniques, their attitude and their approach to training.

Ultimately, though, they can lead to the same level of "mastery." (whatever that is... )

I think the problem with MMA, and flame me if you want, is that too many MMAists are overly competitive, angry, arrogant, cocky competitors who are looking for a fight around every corner to prove their skills...

The person RyuShiKan is takling about, G.E., is one really intimidating looking fella... He lifts to the point that he looks like the Hulk, he trains in grappling to the point that he is like fighting against water.

BUT, he is quiet, even tempered, and very humble about his training... He doesn't boast, he doesn't brag, in fact he avoids talking about training at all.

That is the right attitude to train with. Regardless of the nature of his training, MMA or TMA, he will go far.

The folks that name drop about all the champions they train(ed) with, the number of fights they have won, the titles they have, and that are overly "in your face" about how they could take you in a match are dead on, check block for check block, emulating that good ol' classic bad guy, Mr. Cobra Kai himself (look at them both and you will see the comparisons).

If we use Miyagi as an archetype of the ideal classic TMAist, then it is easy to see the Cobra Kai "sensei" as the antithesis of that archetype. Same standards apply to MMA, really. That is why I agree that MMA and TMA can get you to the same place, with the same results - but only if the right attitude is had during training.

Besides, a lot of TMAs were nothing more than MMAs at one point or another...

Gambarimasu.
:aasian:

 

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

The folks that name drop about all the champions they train(ed) with, the number of fights they have won, the titles they have, and that are overly "in your face" about how they could take you in a match are dead on, check block for check block, emulating that good ol' classic bad guy, Mr. Cobra Kai himself (look at them both and you will see the comparisons).

If we use Miyagi as an archetype of the ideal classic TMAist, then it is easy to see the Cobra Kai "sensei" as the antithesis of that archetype. Same standards apply to MMA, really. That is why I agree that MMA and TMA can get you to the same place, with the same results - but only if the right attitude is had during training.

Besides, a lot of TMAs were nothing more than MMAs at one point or another...

Gambarimasu.
:aasian:

:rofl: That's a good point and some funny stuff about the Cobra Kai. :rofl:

 

[Matt Stone]

Good MAist -

Humble
Avoids titles and other false forms of respect
Understands his/her art on multiple levels
Seeks neither fame nor recognition
Trains for training's sake
Loyal to his art, but not to the sake of hunting down "inferior" arts

Bad MAist -

Arrogant and conceited with his own perceived skill
Collects and enforces titles, usually prefers the title "master"
Understands his/her art shallowly and narrowly
Seeks fame and recognition at every turn, sometimes at the expense of students and/or ethics
Trains only to defeat others
Loyal to his art, but unhesitatingly hunts down all other arts to prove his/her own superiority

And there you have Miyagi vs. Kreese, and any other similar comparison you want to make...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
And there you have Miyagi vs. Kreese, and any other similar comparison you want to make...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

That's the name, Kresse. :rofl: I couldn't think of his full name. John Kresse of the Cobra Kai. :rofl: What a great flick.

 

[KanoLives]

Correction of my spelling. Kreese. Sorry.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

The person RyuShiKan is takling about, G.E., is one really intimidating looking fella... He lifts to the point that he looks like the Hulk, he trains in grappling to the point that he is like fighting against water.

Sgt. G.E. happens to be the exception and not the rule for MMA people…..unfortunately there are not more TMA & MMA people like him.
I have to admire his spririt for several reasons. He is what MA people should strive for.
1)he is as humble as the day is long
2)he doesn’t talk too much
3)he is serious as all hell about training…and strong….one look at him tells you that! (anyone that weighs 220 and does reps with over 380lbs. on bench is kinda strong)
4)he doesn’t “claim” anything………I mean absolutely nothing!