Rememberance Day 'Protestors' In Court

Bill Mattocks

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True, what the symbols represent will remain whatever is done to them. Conversely, by the very nature of their being potent symbols, what is done to them is done to that for which they stand.

It depends in part on how important the thing represented is to an individual and the intent of the part committing offense to the symbol.

The Founders of the USA weighed serious concepts when attempting for forge this new nation, and they were living in an interesting time when there were many fascinating ideas and theories floating about. And they were, let us be clear, intellectual giants, nearly all of them. Well-educated, deeply philosophical, open-minded and (although some consider this an insult) free thinkers.

One of the first concepts to become part of the foundation of our nation was that we are a "nation of laws, not of men" (John Adams). For the rights of citizens to be respected, they must be universal and not subject to infringement either by government for the sake of oppression or convenience of governance, nor by individuals whose honor has been besmirched.

This means no support for honor killings, which we see even today in less enlightened nations. It means no duels, although we had a hard time giving that up even at that time - consider that our own Alexander Hamilton was shot dead in an illegal duel with Aaron Burr. It means we must give our respect to the law, even over the respect we show ourselves and our honor, when circumstances demand it. This is the hard path, is it not?

But this was the age of Voltaire, and our Founders were not immune to his logic when he was (falsely) quoted as having said ""Monsieur l'abbé, je déteste ce que vous écrivez, mais je donnerai ma vie pour que vous puissiez continuer à écrire" http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Voltaire, which was itself later paraphrased as "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

We in the USA have the advantage of youth. We did not inherit all of European traditions, nor their notions of personal honor, insult, revenge and vendetta (we certainly managed to hang onto some of it, e.g., the Hatfields and the McCoys). And while Europe has divorced herself from some of the more bloodthirsty rituals of it's past, it has not been given the opportunity to remake itself en toto.

From the extreme of honor killing and duels to the less odious banning of hurtful speech, we have for the most part rejected such notions completely in the USA. But it is difficult.

We do recognize limits, especially that speech which is likely to precede life-threatening actions, such as inciting to riot. And depending upon the time, place, and nature of the speech in question with either Westboro or your example, either might have been justly seen as such. We recognize the rights of property owners to limit the free expression of speech on their own property by controlling access to it - ie, ejecting sign-wavers from their private property. We even, at times, impose lesser sentences on those convicted of crimes which stemmed from extreme duress and emotional pain, in recognition that both honor and emotional pain can drive one to criminal behavior who might otherwise never have taken such action. But we do not exonerate, nor hold apart from the law such behavior. We cannot deny that lynchings and rough justice have existed and sometimes still exist outside the law, but they law does not recognize laws of retribution or insult to honor or emotion.

Dickens said "The law is an ***" in the novel "Oliver Twist," and he was right. The law is ignorant of how much pain an action causes or does not cause; an action is either legal or it is not, regardless of how the action makes you feel.

Is it wrong for the USA to be so slavishly devoted to the notion of law taking precedence over emotion, ink and paper over people's feelings? I don't think so, but of course it always depends upon whose ox is being gored. When one is objecting to the notion of a woman put to death because her husband found she was not a virgin or unchaste after marriage, we might well consider such laws horrific and despicable. When laws require that a religion's founder's name not be blasphemed, we scoff (although there were laws against blasphemy even in the USA until not that long ago). When someone burns a flag and we find it is a legal and even protected form of speech, we're furious that such an insult would be permitted. Much like a devout or conservative Muslim might think it insulting that a person be legally allowed to desecrate a Koran, eh?

When one accepts the notion that an activity can be legally banned because the majority objects to it, then one must accept that any such activity can be banned because the majority objects to it, no matter what that activity might be. Our 'civil liberties' are written into the Constitution as prohibitions against the federal government rather than statements of actual rights precisely because we wished to draw a bright, clear, line which said "here the government may not trespass." And that means even when the majority have their feelings hurt, their honor impinged, or their pride trampled upon.

This we have. Most other nations do not. And we see the result. One may prefer the latter to the former, and I understand that. But it comes with risk, which I personally do not prefer.
 

K-man

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I think that if your analysis is correct (it isn't), then it is entirely appropriate to note that Westboro Baptist Church represents all Christians.

As noted, the issues are virtually identical. If these guys represent all Muslims, then Westboro represents all Christians.

Com'on Bill, be reasonable. You know I have never said Islamic extremists represent all Muslims. I don't have a problem with muslims. Your introductory statement above is totally inappropriate and it is your statement not mine. I would no more suggest the WBC characterises Christians than the Manson family charaterises Americans. This type of steriotyping is detracting from the discusssion. :asian:
 

K-man

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This gets back to what I said earlier about freedom of speech. I understand why citizens of the UK claim to have freedom of speech, but as seen here, they do not. Anytime one can talk about a right being 'abused' because of how the exercise of it makes others feel, it is not a right at all, is it? Rights by their nature cannot be abused.

Bill, you keep saying that you have freedom of speech and we and the Poms don't.

In my best plummy British accent, I must ask you respectfully, Sir, to desist comment on matters of which you obviously have not the knowledge to reasonably discuss.
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We have the same freedom of speech as you. As with your Government, our Government can legislate against certain actions or words. The fact that the British or Australian Governments choose to disallow certain actions does not detract from our rights.

The link below contains the Australian situation.

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rn/2001-02/02rn42.htm

Now let me address your last statement .... "Rights by their nature cannot be abused."


No loss of life, liberty, or property without due process. Guantanamo Bay? Julian Assange

A person cannot be forced to testify against themselves. Guantanamo Bay?

No excessive bail or fines and no cruel or unusual punishments. Guantanamo Bay?

Grand jury indictment required for serious crimes. Call for another country's citizen, Julian Assange, to face execution without a trial or even a charge!
Right to a speedy, public, and impartial trial. Guantanamo Bay?, Julian Assange?

Sorry Bill, I must be a bit thick between the ears today. Can you explain the above in simple terms, please?
:asian:
 

Bill Mattocks

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Com'on Bill, be reasonable. You know I have never said Islamic extremists represent all Muslims. I don't have a problem with muslims. Your introductory statement above is totally inappropriate and it is your statement not mine. I would no more suggest the WBC characterises Christians than the Manson family charaterises Americans. This type of steriotyping is detracting from the discusssion. :asian:

I quote your words, "Don't be overly alarmed or concerned, Superkin. This is just an advanced form of middle eastern gratitude for their chance at a new life in a civilised community.
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"


I'll stand by my assessment. If I were to paraphrase for contrast, I'd say "Don't be overly alarmed, Westboro's demonstrations are just an advanced form of Christian American gratitude for their chance at a new life in the colonies."

The fact that you said "middle eastern gratitude" and not "Muslim" gratitude doesn't change the tenor of the statement. I sincerely doubt you'd have applied the term to Israeli protesters, had they been such.
 

Bill Mattocks

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Bill, you keep saying that you have freedom of speech and we and the Poms don't.

Yes, I do.

In my best plummy British accent, I must ask you respectfully, Sir, to desist comment on matters of which you obviously have not the knowledge to reasonably discuss.
icon10.gif

I feel qualified in this matter. If my knowledge of English law is lacking, then so to yours of US law, so we're equally yoked, perhaps.

We have the same freedom of speech as you. As with your Government, our Government can legislate against certain actions or words. The fact that the British or Australian Governments choose to disallow certain actions does not detract from our rights.

It is true but irrelevant that both types of government can legislate against certain forms of speech. Our government's laws must be held to the standard of the Constitution and Bill of Rights if challenged and certiorari granted by judicial review such as the Supreme Court. The nature of the challenge can be essentially different from any challenge that would be issued in other courts in other nations. That is, it concerns itself not with the relative merits of the complaint as much as it does with the right of the government to infringe on a civil right. The burden is on the government to prove that they have the authority to infringe and that such infringement does not trespass where they are forbidden to do so.

In the case cited by O/P, the court concerned itself with the harm done by the speech, not the right of the government to curtail such speech. This is essentially different, and as we see, it came up with different results.

The link below contains the Australian situation.

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rn/2001-02/02rn42.htm

I read it, thank you. Unless I am seriously deficient in my critical reading skills, it reinforces my point, albeit with regard to Australia. Australia has no freedom of speech. It says so right there. I'm not sure how much more clear they can make it.

"It is interesting to note that not only is there no legislation providing for freedom of speech either in the Constitution or in other legislation, but Governments have passed legislation to prevent free speech in certain circumstances. Examples include the various State and Territory defamation laws,(16) and racial vilification laws. Censorship laws may also be used to prevent freedom of speech by restricting distribution of certain films and publications, although these laws now serve mainly to classify publications according to the age groups which can see them, rather than preventing their publication."



Now let me address your last statement .... "Rights by their nature cannot be abused."


No loss of life, liberty, or property without due process. Guantanamo Bay? Julian Assange

A person cannot be forced to testify against themselves. Guantanamo Bay?

No excessive bail or fines and no cruel or unusual punishments. Guantanamo Bay?

Grand jury indictment required for serious crimes. Call for another country's citizen, Julian Assange, to face execution without a trial or even a charge!
Right to a speedy, public, and impartial trial. Guantanamo Bay?, Julian Assange?

Sorry Bill, I must be a bit thick between the ears today. Can you explain the above in simple terms, please?
:asian:

I think I could have stated it more clearly. I did not intend to imply that rights cannot be abused BY INFRINGING ON THEM. I meant the statement as a reply to those who claim that one can 'abuse' a right by exercising it in an offensive way. My response to them is that this is not possible. I apologize for not making it more clear.

The civil liberty either exists or it does not. If, for example, I have the right to stand in a public place and state my political opinion, then I can in no way 'abuse' that right. It does not matter what my political opinion is; I either have the right to stand there and state it or I do not. What I happen to believe is of NO consequence.

Some, however, disagree. They believe (nominally) in the right of free speech so long as they do not find it personally offensive. For example, abortion protesters picketing abortion clinics and waving signs with photos of aborted fetuses on them. Or anti-war protesters staging rallies in public parks, or picketing military bases or recruitment stations. Or anti-gay rallies; or pro-gay rallies. Or KKK rallies on courthouse steps. Or...

Each time, I read or hear people who are offended, stating that so-and-so may have the right to say what they are saying, but that they are 'abusing' that right. My retort is that such is not possible. If they have the right, they cannot abuse it by exercising it.

This is important because it contrasts with the UK law, apparently. In the case cited by the O/P, one could, supposedly, have burned the poppy in public if no one was offended by it - the court took testimony by offended viewers specifically to attempt to prove that people were, in fact, offended. This is a right abrogated by how it makes others feel - an abuse of a right. My statement is still that one cannot abuse a right by exercising it. If such is possible, it is not a right at all.
 
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