Religion and Martial Arts

Old Fat Kenpoka

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Here are # 13 and 14 from their rules list...

13. Learn the Kajukenbo Prayer.


14. The class will circle up for closing at the end of class.


When circling up after class, position yourself according to rank, starting with the highest rank and moving counterclockwise to the lowest rank.


Get into position kneeling down on your right knee, right hand in a fist on the ground and head lowered. The instructor (usually Sifu [name deleted]) asks someone to lead the class in the Kajukenbo Prayer.


After the Kajukenbo Prayer is recited responsively, the instructor tells the class to come halfway up, kneeling on both knees in an upright position. Each person removes his/her belt and uses it to wipes his/her brow.


The instructor tells the class to stand in set position. The instructor (usually Sifu) will ask the class to salute one another. The highest ranking student then tells the class to set and salute the instructor, using his/her title (i.e. Set and salute the Sifu before you.). If more than one black belt is present, the next highest ranking student tells the class to set and salute the next highest ranking Black Belt, using his/her title (i.e. Set and salute the Black Belt before you.). This continues until all of the Black Belts have been saluted.


In order from highest to lowest rank, everyone shakes hands."
 
A

Abbax8

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I am a judo instructor who also happens to be Catholic. I do not teach anything explicitly religious in class except for one BIG THING. I tell all my students Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Translation- don't fall onto your uke unless you want them to fall UNTO you. Works well outside of class as well. Don't freak out and plow someone into the ground for a minor insult.

Peace
Dennis
 

Cruentus

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well...thats pretty interesting. I never knew all of that. I just always figured that "under God" was there from the inception of the pledge back in the 1800's. I new the pledge was invented over 100 years ago, and is a part of our heritage. It's not far fetched to assume that "under God" was always there due to the reason that the U.S. was founded puritans. Christian fundamentalism is deep in our countries heritage, whether we agree or not.

You learn something new everyday. What I find laughable is that we had to pass an amendment to use the words "Under God," then we had to use our court system to declare it "unconstitutional." Our lovely tax dollars at work again. :rolleyes: What a sad state of affairs.

For a child of a different religious belief or background to get in trouble for something like not saying "under God" is stupid. This crosses the line and I feel it is "religious intolerance."

Well, since these seem to be the facts, I stand corrected on my "pledge" objection. As much as I am against the Government and the machines that run it manufacturing ideas for it's people, it looks like I just became a victim myself. Well, in this day in age, it could happend to any of us. ;)

My point about tradition and heritage still stands; I think that it is something that should be kept, and people should be a little thicker skinned sometimes. When I say traditions should be kept, I mean this across the board; so I believe that traditions and beliefs of the minority should not get "melted away" and lost in the majority, if you get what I mean.

:asian:
 

Old Fat Kenpoka

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I'm sure the Kajukenbo prayer is no problem for the overwhelming majority of prospective students. It's just not the right prayer for me and my people.
 
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Nightingale

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Originally posted by PAUL
. It's not far fetched to assume that "under God" was always there due to the reason that the U.S. was founded puritans. Christian fundamentalism is deep in our countries heritage, whether we agree or not.

:asian:


The US was NOT founded by puritans. The puritans were a small sect. Many of our founding fathers were, in fact, Deist or Agnostic. See below quotes.


Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

John Adams:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

Here's Thomas Paine:

"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."

And; "The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."

James Madison:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

References: The writings of Thomas Jefferson exist in 25 volumes. Other references were found in the book, SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS, by John E. Remsburg (who interviewed many of Lincoln's associates). Much of his work on Jefferson came from THE MEMOIRS, CORRESPONDENCE AND MISCELLANIES FROM THE PAPERS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, 4 volumes ed. by Thomas Jefferson Randolph (the grandson of Thomas Jefferson).





**Personal note**

I have no trouble with the idea of christianity in general, or with christians in particular. I just found the above information interesting, because it goes against the common idea that the US is a "christian nation". The comments above made by our founding fathers (especially the Tripoli one) makes it very clear that this popular opinion is incorrect.
 

Rich Parsons

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Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

For me, when I was in school I would simply omit those 2 words. At one point I was informed it was required. After that, I sat silently. Did I get in trouble? Yup. But it wasn't such a big issue (at the time) to make a big tado over.

(Plus, when you're polytheistic, 'under god' makes ya ask, which one?') :)


Kaith,

I always said under My God. I have no idea to whom all the others were pleading their alligence too with the flag.

Now where did I leave my God(s) at?? ;)
 

Rich Parsons

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Originally posted by nightingale8472
The US was NOT founded by puritans. The puritans were a small sect. Many of our founding fathers were, in fact, Deist or Agnostic. See below quotes.


Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

John Adams:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

Here's Thomas Paine:

"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."

And; "The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."

James Madison:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

References: The writings of Thomas Jefferson exist in 25 volumes. Other references were found in the book, SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS, by John E. Remsburg (who interviewed many of Lincoln's associates). Much of his work on Jefferson came from THE MEMOIRS, CORRESPONDENCE AND MISCELLANIES FROM THE PAPERS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, 4 volumes ed. by Thomas Jefferson Randolph (the grandson of Thomas Jefferson).





**Personal note**

I have no trouble with the idea of christianity in general, or with christians in particular. I just found the above information interesting, because it goes against the common idea that the US is a "christian nation". The comments above made by our founding fathers (especially the Tripoli one) makes it very clear that this popular opinion is incorrect.

Nightingale,

I like this misunderstanding. It shatters people's beliefs.

I am searching for a website that had a nice list of the world religions according to sect.

What many people do not realize that with the Christians there is a numerous choices, and that the Islam Faith / Muslims have a much more unified front for a state religion.

Becareful for what you ask for you might get it and not want it :D.

Thanks Again for the info!
 

don bohrer

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NG,

I know an instructor that belongs to the Karate for Christ. He's teaches out of the church he attends on Monday nights. Total cost is $20 for the year. He uses the money to offset the cost of uniforms, patches, and certificates for kids that can't afford it. The parents and kids know what he teaches and why. Karate for Christ says it all.

He opens and closes with prayer. Often this is led by one of the students or parents. When I first meet him he told me up front that a prayer is said before and after class. I have never witnessed any conduct that could be misleading. He teaches and is happy to do so, and doesn't get a dime to put in his own pocket.

After many conversations with this man I am led to believe most of the Karate for Christ have their hearts in the right place. He has mentioned many individuals teaching under this umbrella that he personally holds in high regards. Knowing him and his charactor I will take him at face value. If you have one near you... check it out.


don
 

Cruentus

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Originally posted by don bohrer
NG,

I know an instructor that belongs to the Karate for Christ. He's teaches out of the church he attends on Monday nights. Total cost is $20 for the year. He uses the money to offset the cost of uniforms, patches, and certificates for kids that can't afford it. The parents and kids know what he teaches and why. Karate for Christ says it all.

He opens and closes with prayer. Often this is led by one of the students or parents. When I first meet him he told me up front that a prayer is said before and after class. I have never witnessed any conduct that could be misleading. He teaches and is happy to do so, and doesn't get a dime to put in his own pocket.

After many conversations with this man I am led to believe most of the Karate for Christ have their hearts in the right place. He has mentioned many individuals teaching under this umbrella that he personally holds in high regards. Knowing him and his charactor I will take him at face value. If you have one near you... check it out.

don

That's pretty cool....I am sure some "Karate for Christ" programs are good. They just aren't for everyone....Old Fat Kenpoka for example who is Jewish.

I certiantly don't care what people do, so long as they are upfront about it.
 

Cruentus

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I am going to have a field day with you, but for the sake of time, I may not get to a response to your statement until Wednesday. My response will probably require a lot of typing and a recap on my sources, which I have little time for tomorrow.

I will say in your favor that at least your opinion is very well cited and researched.

However.......

But prepared...the can of whoopass will be opened before the week is out! :enguard: :rofl:

PAUL

P.S. don't take my kidding too seriously, although I am in obvious disagreement and I'll explain why later, of course you and I will be having a logical and good discussion, as we've always had in the past on other issues. :cool:
 

Brother John

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Originally posted by Ender
As I posted earlier, our pastor is an 8th Dan San Soo Kung Fu teacher. he was asked how he can justify martial arts and being as pastor: he answered "if you are out with your wife and kids and are attacked, would you just stand there and say "Hallejueah"?..no, you take a 2x4..and bless him with it!"....*l

the point is everything has it's place.

I'm a christian and all my students know it.
I'd die for Christ
But not for my wallet.

Your Brother
John
 
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Nightingale

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Originally posted by don bohrer
NG,

I know an instructor that belongs to the Karate for Christ. He's teaches out of the church he attends on Monday nights. Total cost is $20 for the year. He uses the money to offset the cost of uniforms, patches, and certificates for kids that can't afford it. The parents and kids know what he teaches and why. Karate for Christ says it all.

He opens and closes with prayer. Often this is led by one of the students or parents. When I first meet him he told me up front that a prayer is said before and after class. I have never witnessed any conduct that could be misleading. He teaches and is happy to do so, and doesn't get a dime to put in his own pocket.

After many conversations with this man I am led to believe most of the Karate for Christ have their hearts in the right place. He has mentioned many individuals teaching under this umbrella that he personally holds in high regards. Knowing him and his charactor I will take him at face value. If you have one near you... check it out.


don


like I said earlier, I have no problem with these kinds of programs, as long as they are clear about what people are signing up for. There's nothing wrong with opening/closing class with a prayer, as long as you are up front with your prospective students about this before they give you any money.
 

TallAdam85

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I trained at a Christian Martial Arts school for a while and I did not like hit very much it felt werid training in the gym of a chruch. I only trained there cause My friend is a Black belt thru them I trained there for only a Month mostly cause it is kinda hard to train in different styles and stiill be in school.


Also the 2nd thing is i Have a friend he knowes nothing about Martial Arts but he told me I should not bow to anyone but good I told him that bowing was for respect. But still falls into religion in martial arts
 
T

twinkletoes

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WOW, I'm sorry I missed this thread. I had an experience with one of those "fringe" schools.

I'll note that I myself am an atheist. I used to be agnostic, but getting a philosophy degree pushed me over the edge into being comfortable not believing. But I'm digressing...

Towards the end of college, a friend and I got a referral to a pressure point instructor in our area. We met with him, and he was only taking on private students, but seemed to like us, so the two of us, plus one other guy, because his tiny class.

What I started to notice was that this guy was really religious. Now I mean really religious. We stopped by his house one day, because he needed to pick things up, and there was a large group of people in the kitchen doing their nightly bible readings. I guess this happened a lot at his house, for a few hours each night.

In class it was OK in the beginning, and he was fairly respectful of the fact that I wasn't into it. However, as time went on, it became very apparent that his views on Martial Arts, Pressure Points, QiGong, Spirituality, Religion, Theology, and more (economics, politics, etiquette, etc.) were all really irreversibly wound together. He couldn't mention anything without it turning into a discussion on his views on God.

I lasted for a little while, because I felt like we were learning some pretty good stuff, but as we started to get into it, he expected us to have certain experiences, and most (if not all) involved some kind of religious happening. Finally one day in class he (and one of his brothers) spent 40 minuutes trying to convince me that with the point I was at, it was time for me to start realizing that in order to continue learning QiGong I was going to have to acknowledge Jesus, otherwise I would be continuing at the peril of my life (and afterlife). This majorly crossed the line.

When I told him I was leaving, I think he was relieved. He hadn't known what to do with me, because (as he told me then) he had considered re-naming the school "Christian Martial Arts & Qigong" but felt bad doing that after I had joined. I think he was also relieved because he felt it was risky I continue without recognizing Jesus, and now that was not his problem anymore.

The truly unfortunate thing is that there were cool things I could have learned from this guy, but the overpowering effect that religion had on his life really limited his ability to communicate things. It warped a lot of his messages, because the lesson was lost among his own personal slants. In the end, even my friend (who was Christian) tuned him out a lot, because it all just became preaching, and often it didn't make sense unless you shared his unique perspective on the interwovenness of it all.

(As an end note, my friend tells me that he stopped teaching Qigong a few months ago, because "God told him to." He still teaches TKD, but that's all.)

~TT
 

SenseiBear

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Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
So what does everyone think of pledges that exhalt a diety such as Jesus or Buddha? What does everyone think of bowing to a picture of the style's founder? Both of these are required in many schools. I am uncomfortable with either.

I have no problem bowing to instructors, statues, pictures of the founder, etc. Bowing is not worshipping, it is a sign of respect. I can respect an icon, a flag, a very knowledgable person, or a concept/idea... When I used to train with a very religious man, he closed class with a prayer. I bowed my head. I didn't share his beliefs, but I respected him and his beliefs, as I would expect people to respect me and my beliefs. Bowing my head in no way invalidated my own beliefs.
 

Touch Of Death

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Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
I'm sure the Kajukenbo prayer is no problem for the overwhelming majority of prospective students. It's just not the right prayer for me and my people.
OFK,
I have trained breifly in two different forms of Kajukenbo. One was with a guy named "Kimo" Fierrio. We never prayed and I was very impressed with the system. I later got an oportunity to train here in Washinton state with a guy that taught out of his home. It was then that I found out how cool Kimo was because I absolutely hated what this particular guy was teaching. I never went back and couldn't tell you if they prayed or not. Not all Kajukenbo is the same so I wouln't negate the art from your short list. Maybe just that school.
 
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rmcrobertson

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You know, it's funny. I never seem to've heard any stories about agnostics and materialists going on and on about their beliefs before starting class...
 
T

twinkletoes

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I never seem to've heard any stories about agnostics and materialists going on and on about their beliefs before starting class...

Maybe I will be the first :)


"You think you're a soul? How did you get in that body? How do you move it around?"

"Is there life after death? Doesn't that mean "life after life ends"? Boy is THAT a dumb question. That's like asking if dinner continues after dinner ends....."


I think I will start the Worldwide Atheist/Materialist Martial Arts Fellowship Association. Anyone else in? :D

~TT

"We are living in a material world, and I am a material philosopher."
 

Old Fat Kenpoka

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Sean: I definitely wouldn't eliminate Kajukenbo from my short list. Just that one school for that one reason. And really, it is my personal problem and not a problem with the school. The school has a strong lineage (as far as I know) and everything else about them (except for maybe the 100 push ups if you are late to class) looks pretty appealing.
 
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