Realistic Training !!

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Bigshadow

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That video is like shooting fish in a barrel. Those guys were not a serious threat, it is pretty obvious they didn't want any of that.

This response time is related to awareness and the OODA loop.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

So bringing it back around towards the origional topic, is your training helping you to process fast enough through the OODA loop to be effective during a real time interaction, with unpredictable and resistant opponents (and your own adrenal dump), if you only train slow and with mainly compliant partners?


I don't believe you can train yourself to complete the ooda loop any faster. That is a natural process of the conscious thought that must be performed. However, it was lack of awareness that puts people into ooda. That is why SWAT teams use the tactics they do, it is to keep the people in ooda. That is all about surprise attack. If you are caught by surprise, I don't believe you can speed the ooda up. If the attacker knows what he/she is doing, they can keep you in ooda. You will simply have to tough it out until they pause just long enough for the brain to catch up.

Also, while in ooda, everything seems so fast, when it may not be.
 
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Seattletcj

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That video is like shooting fish in a barrel. Those guys were not a serious threat, it is pretty obvious they didn't want any of that.

Pretty obvious? , hmmm. So they didnt know what was going to happen after they backhanded the guys girlfriend? I see. Just a couple of guys randomly hitting people and oblivious to any response the action may generate.
I did mention that there was another longer version of the clip which showed the guys practicing how to grab and control someone.

And the outcome had nothing to do with the boxers quick, skillful and accurate strikes that kept the thugs confused? Just dumb luck. LOL. maybe.
I guess we each see what we want to see.

From the OODA article :
As one of Boyd's colleagues, Harry Hillaker, put it in his article "John Boyd, USAF Retired, Father of the F16" [2]: The key is to obscure your intentions and make them unpredictable to your opponent while you simultaneously clarify his intentions. That is, operate at a faster tempo to generate rapidly changing conditions that inhibit your opponent from adapting or reacting to those changes and that suppress or destroy his awareness. Thus, a hodgepodge of confusion and disorder occur to cause him to over- or under-react to conditions or activities that appear to be uncertain, ambiguous, or incomprehensible.
AND
But practice and mental focus may allow one to reduce the time scale, get inside the opponent's OODA loop, and take control of the situation - to cause the opponent to move in a particular way, and generate an advantage rather than merely reacting to an accident.
I don't believe you can train yourself to complete the ooda loop any faster.
That is a natural process of the conscious thought that must be performed. However, it was lack of awareness that puts people into ooda.
Actually everyone is always in an OODA loop. Its more about how well/fast you can respond to change in order to complete your loop.
Re-read the article. Here is a portion that may help explain how it works.

As the dogfight begins, little time is devoted to orienting unless some new information pertaining to the actual identity or intent of the attacker comes into play. Information cascades in real time, and the pilot does not have time to process it consciously; the pilot reacts as he is trained to, and conscious thought is directed to supervising the flow of action and reaction, continuously repeating the OODA cycle. Simultaneously, the opponent is going through the same cycle.
How does one interfere with an opponent's OODA cycle? One of John Boyd's primary insights in fighter combat was that it is vital to change speed and direction faster than the opponent. This is not necessarily a function of the plane's ability to maneuver, rather the pilot must think and act faster than the opponent can think and act. Getting "inside" the cycle — short-circuiting the opponent's thinking processes - produces opportunities for the opponent to react inappropriately.
I'm sure you would agree that the more you practice something the better you get at it right? The more basketball you play the quicker you can mentally respond to changes in play.

Also, while in ooda, everything seems so fast, when it may not be.
I'd argue that the faster you cycle through the loop, the slower things seem.
Just my opinion. I'm not an expert on it.
 

Rook

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That video is like shooting fish in a barrel. Those guys were not a serious threat, it is pretty obvious they didn't want any of that.

Thats true, but lets think about why for a second. These two attackers had all the advantages - the were bigger, they had the element of suprise, they had enough planning before hand to put a 3rd man up on a hill to observe with a camera, they took the offensive, and the "boxer's" girlfriend was hanging onto him a good part of the time he was fighting. Yet, they got beaten decisively by a fifth rate "boxer" throwing some pretty wild shots.
 

Bigshadow

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I guess we each see what we want to see.

What I saw was what would appear as vengence at work. What ever happened to "Do only what is necessary, no more, no less"? Anyway I am not so sure what happened was a surprise to anyone.

As for the OODA loop, I really was thinking from the point of view of short circuiting it. I will read through the link again. It has been a year since I have read the wiki on it after learning of it from a LEO student.
 

Don Roley

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If your opponents look like world conquering robots from a 1940s scifi movie
then ya that can create more pressure. :)
On the other hand its kind of hard to miss your target when the [SIZE=-1]circumference[/SIZE] of his head is 3 feet.

You know, if you want to say that people should do things your way, you should at least try something like Peytonn Quinn's stuff before you start to make fun of it. I have done what you are advocating. But it looks like you are looking for a chance avoid the training I have gone through. So when we are talking about people staying in their nice, safe, little boxes, guess who is the subject of conversation?
 

Rubber Tanto

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I kind of agree a little with everyone here but I really do understand where seattletcj is coming from on this one:

lido.gif


The head guard is so big it gives a false understanding of targeting (to big and easy to hit an area)as well as takes away the opportunity to learn specific points to pinpoint such as under the cheek bone, the nose, eye socket etc... On the other end of the scale, the attacker cannot move his hands realistically to cover up his giant head so you also don't get to appreciate how blocking hands can mess with your defence.

Would make a cool book though..."Muggers are from Mars, Martial Artists are from Venus"

(Noticed how I managed to keep completely away from uranus :angel: )
 

Don Roley

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The head guard is so big it gives a false understanding of targeting (to big and easy to hit an area)as well as takes away the opportunity to learn specific points to pinpoint such as under the cheek bone, the nose, eye socket etc... On the other end of the scale, the attacker cannot move his hands realistically to cover up his giant head so you also don't get to appreciate how blocking hands can mess with your defence.

And can you show me a way that I can slam full force blows repeatedly into the eye socket?

Slow targeting of the eye socket in training drills, precision strikes to points on the makiwara or bag and training such as this seems to be about the only way to get that type of skill.

(This point, of course, goes for all the targets.)
 

Rook

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And can you show me a way that I can slam full force blows repeatedly into the eye socket?

Slow targeting of the eye socket in training drills, precision strikes to points on the makiwara or bag and training such as this seems to be about the only way to get that type of skill.

(This point, of course, goes for all the targets.)

It doesn't look like you could target the eye socket through a helmet that big. You would just be hitting in the general area while hitting the helmet. I doubt that a person in such a suit could launch a credible attack either.
 

Don Roley

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It doesn't look like you could target the eye socket through a helmet that big. You would just be hitting in the general area while hitting the helmet. I doubt that a person in such a suit could launch a credible attack either.

I should have been more clear. There is more to training than just one aspect. The slow training targetting the areas I talked about was with unarmored opponents.

As for launching credible attacks- try at least viewing a clip of them in action if there is one before you turn your back on the concept.
 

Rook

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I should have been more clear. There is more to training than just one aspect. The slow training targetting the areas I talked about was with unarmored opponents.

As for launching credible attacks- try at least viewing a clip of them in action if there is one before you turn your back on the concept.

I've been to seminars where people wore suits similar to the one pictured. I understand what it is like to be attacked by a person wearing it, although not a Peyton Quinn affiliated seminar. If you have video of Quinn's seminar and how it might be different, I would be happy to take the time to see it and comment accordingly.
 

Rubber Tanto

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And can you show me a way that I can slam full force blows repeatedly into the eye socket?

yeah sure.

You wear something like these:

gloves_csi_top_contender_grappling_gloves_cs-cgrap-r.jpg


and your uke can wear something like this:
w-070.jpg


or this:

w-069.jpg


or this (recommended):

IMM_leather_headguard_full_cage.jpg


and You can be more accurate in where you land your blows at full speed and energy, gain better muscle memory, have a better feeling for the size of the target under prassure and resistance and your uke won't get hurt.

Hope this helps
~Nick
 

Seattletcj

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You know, if you want to say that people should do things your way, you should at least try something like Peytonn Quinn's stuff before you start to make fun of it.

Just joking around. I see the value in it for sure.

I have done what you are advocating. But it looks like you are looking for a chance avoid the training I have gone through. So when we are talking about people staying in their nice, safe, little boxes, guess who is the subject of conversation?

LOL. What I've been advocating, is exactly what you are defending. Aliveness. I dont see the conflict. Relax.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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yeah sure.

You wear something like these:

gloves_csi_top_contender_grappling_gloves_cs-cgrap-r.jpg


and your uke can wear something like this:
w-070.jpg


or this:

w-069.jpg


or this (recommended):

IMM_leather_headguard_full_cage.jpg


and You can be more accurate in where you land your blows at full speed and energy, gain better muscle memory, have a better feeling for the size of the target under prassure and resistance and your uke won't get hurt.

Hope this helps
~Nick

This is very similar to alot of the gear that I use. Great stuff to work with.
 

Rook

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LOL. What I've been advocating, is exactly what you are defending. Aliveness. I dont see the conflict. Relax.

I don't get it. You and Don are coming at this from completely different directions and I don't see at all how you are both after aliveness in the sense ussually meant.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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I don't get it. You and Don are coming at this from completely different directions and I don't see at all how you are both after aliveness in the sense ussually meant.

Rook when practicing Budo Taijutsu I train the way Hatsumi Sensei teaches. (at least I try to) However in IRT I train similarly and yet differently. I am not against rolling, sparring or any other types of training method. Though I would say if you are practicing Budo Taijutsu then you should try to be studying it the way it is taught in Japan. I believe Don feels the same way. Hope that helps.
 

Rubber Tanto

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This is very similar to alot of the gear that I use. Great stuff to work with.

Oh yeah!
You just have to be careful on the MMA gloves you choose as some gloves have wrist support that takes away the "bite" of a wrist lock.

I keep an open face and closed face guard because I have noticed that some times the closed face gives you a false sense of security.

Brian, back on thread topic...what would you say would be your most realistic training drill in your dojo/gym?
~Nick
 

Seattletcj

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I don't get it. You and Don are coming at this from completely different directions and I don't see at all how you are both after aliveness in the sense ussually meant.

What I understand aliveness to be is something with motion timing and energy. It can be a drill, scenario training, or sparring. It does not require tori/tori. Something as simple as jab vs jab is not totally realistic, but is alive and usefull as a drill to develop certain attributes.
What Peyton Quinn does is alive, as far as I can tell. A clip would help though.

I am suprised that Don agrees with the methodology, especially since it is not practiced in Japan, or taught by the shihan.

I guess a good training method is a good training method, right?
 

makoto-dojo

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I am suprised that Don agrees with the methodology, especially since it is not practiced in Japan, or taught by the shihan.

I guess a good training method is a good training method, right?


I must agree with you on this one Dom. Seems weird...

Also:
Rook when practicing Budo Taijutsu I train the way Hatsumi Sensei teaches. (at least I try to) However in IRT I train similarly and yet differently. I am not against rolling, sparring or any other types of training method. Though I would say if you are practicing Budo Taijutsu then you should try to be studying it the way it is taught in Japan. I believe Don feels the same way. Hope that helps.

This is EXACTLY what I was saying on another thread (you know the one...) When I teach Tanemura Sensei's arts, I do it "by the book"! I do however have a Jissen-Kai class where we drill and exercise and use Takamatsu-den techniques. But I don't change the actual Genbukan classes...

I also teach and still have teachers in JKD, Kali grappling etc. where we do alive drills etc. My point with the other post was that if you experience other arts in a more free form exchange, you will learn through experience that you can't leave your arm out there for example. And if you train a bit more alive you will come away with experience and know for yourself what you can do and what you can't.

It makes me wonder looking at the quoted posts, why i received so much bad rep with comments like "I think I know more than hatsumi" and all sorts of crazy comments.. I never said Bujinkan people should change what Hatsumi San teaches them. I wa and always have been talking about gaining experience. And it appears that other who are IN the Bujinkan do the same.

Mr. VanCise spars, but they don't in Japan right? Mr Hatsumi has said not to right? Mr. Hatsumi is his kancho correct? So he is doing something directly against what Hatsumi advises no?

Its silly.. Honestly LOL!

For the record, I am not trying to get on Mr. VanCise here. I am happy he spars etc. Good for him, just pointing out what appears like a bit of a double standard among some folks.

Am I reading this wrong? Not just me either, what about the flack Domonic is taking?

If I am missing something I am open to an explaination.

Sincerely,
 

Don Roley

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yeah sure.

You wear something like these:

No, not the way I do strikes to the eyes. I put my thumbs in the eye sockets. You can't do that with these. Nor can you do a lot of the stuff that imapcts the neck. When someone is hit on the chin in a boxing ring and goes down, it is the whiplash of the kneck that really knocks them out.

And it looks like you are training with this type of stuff to get the habit of striking to the face with a closed fist. That is not something I do. Try talking to some people with a lot of experience hitting other people. They will say that something like a shakoken to the chin and then attacking with the shishiken and the like from there while controlling the head and kneck is a better choice. A lot of people break their hands striking with a closed fist to the face.

You can't do this with what you use, nor can you do it with the bulletman suits. Nothing other than combat is like real combat. And anyone trying to say that because they do "X" that they will do well in combat is just fooling themselves. If you look at one part of training (like kata) you will only get one angle on the problem. The problem is that many people take a look at just that one angle and treat it as the whole picture as a straw man argument it seems. And they can't accept the fact that with the thousands of years and mulitiple cultures that have been devoted to hitting other people that there is any other method of learning than their own.
 

Don Roley

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This is EXACTLY what I was saying on another thread (you know the one...) When I teach Tanemura Sensei's arts, I do it "by the book"! I do however have a Jissen-Kai class where we drill and exercise and use Takamatsu-den techniques.

I think the reason you got so much flak in the thread you started was that you posted it in a section devoted to discussions about how training is done in Japan. If you freely admit that what you do is not how the training is done in Japan, then there are other areas that you can post it in without sounding like you are trying to seem more knowledgeable than the soke of the art you study.
 
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