Realistic Training !!

[bencole]

I think he was making a joke, hence the smiley face right after the link.

Actually, that wasn't quite clear, especially after he wrote: "Well.........that's all." when Bigshadow asked "Are you serious?"

The smiley face could indicate his pride in what he is doing, rather than pointing to a joke. Who knows. That's why I asked, especially in light of his reply to Bigshadow.

-ben

 

[Seattletcj]

ROFL

That was not me, or anyone I know, in the video !!! :lol:
I'm not that good.

( BTW that was also not me that said "Well.........that's all." I believe that was another poster )

 

[jks9199]

Ah, but if Oguri was to say that he did something in his early days and advised all begginers did it as well, would you not be interested? I have heard from him that he used to practice with stances a lot deeper than he uses now but no longer needs to or is that desirable due to his advanced age. So I think we should not move as he does now in randori, but follow his advice in training.

I want to take this as a quick, convenient point to explain what I've meant when I say "I want to look like my teacher when I move" or similar comments. My teacher has a certain character to his movements, whether we're doing something solo or with a partner. The same character is seen in many of his peers; the people who started their training at the same time he did. And it's seen in his teacher's movement. They don't all move exactly the same way; they're all very different people. But you can't help but know that they've trained in the same principles. And, from clips that Brian and others have posted of Bujinkan practitioners -- I've seen a different, but equally identifiable character. It's clear that they've all learned the same principles; they may not express them exactly the same way, but they're definitely "reading from the same book."

You know that Hatsumi has said on many occasions that he is teaching for the judan level and above. Whatever else you may think about that statement, I think we can agree that people should not just show up and expect basics to be shown to them in his classes. But you also know that no Bujkinkan member in good standing is ever turned away from his training. So even though he gives advice that means to me that white belts shoud go to the shihan or others to learn basics, you can see many white belts now at his training. I think this shows that the message of what you should be doing is no secret, but no one is going to force you to make the right choice. And in the same way, the senior shihan will tell you if you have the proper attitude what they did in the beggining and what they think you need to do to get better. But there will be no compulsion. If you do not try to do what they want, they will not waste their time trying to correct you.

I was always frustrated when I realized that our chief instructor had something he wanted to teach -- but couldn't because there were several people in the group that weren't skilled enough to learn it. They lacked the basics to handle the lesson in the time he had available, so, rather than embarass them and tell them to sit out, or something like that -- he altered the lesson and didn't go beyond them. I think that this is at least not uncommon in Asian cultures (especially Japanese!); they seem to avoid direct confrontation or directly implying that someone is in the wrong place. Instead, they "steer" you towards the right idea. And, incidentally, I think this cultural clash is at the root of a lot of Western "problems" with the Asian martial arts...

I would be satisfied with someone like Hatsumi advising us to do something like sparring or adding things to the art rather than deciding on our own. If he does not tell us to do something, I would be leary of doing it unless I knew I had some information or experience he did not have. I know I do not have all the answers about taijutsu or the reasons behind what we do. It is not the things I know about that worries me, it is the stuff that I do not even know that I do not know about that makes the thought of fooling with the path laid out by Hatsumi so scary.

I will let you guess how many times Hatsumi and I have headed over to a restaurant after class -- because it has been awhile since he saw me and wanted to catch up on what is going on in my life... His direct -- dedicated -- focused attention on me can be counted in the single digit minutes. As such -- I suffer no illusions about "personal student of... blah blah blah". Instead, I carry on the way I think I should -- under the watchful eye of those who I trust and see on a regular basis.

I think this is the best any of us, in any system, can do. My teacher once described three elements as being necessary for success in studying the martial arts. You need faith in your system; that it is valid and will meet your goals, if done properly. You need faith in your teachers; that they will properly pass on to you the lessons of the system. Finally, you need faith in yourself; that you will properly apply and practice those lessons.

 

[Ronnin]

Actually, that wasn't quite clear, especially after he wrote: "Well.........that's all." when Bigshadow asked "Are you serious?"

The smiley face could indicate his pride in what he is doing, rather than pointing to a joke. Who knows. That's why I asked, especially in light of his reply to Bigshadow.

-ben

that was me saying "Well.........that's all".
I didn't quite know what to say about that.

 

[Tenchijin2]

eh... nevermind.

This thread has been somewhat revealing, but not terribly surprising. I remember when I used to feel like I was in the Bujinkan mainstream.

 

[DWeidman]

eh... nevermind.

This thread has been somewhat revealing, but not terribly surprising. I remember when I used to feel like I was in the Bujinkan mainstream.

What exactly is the mainstream Bujinkan? I get the feeling I am not in *it* either...

-DW

 

[Rubber Tanto]

Sorry, please forgive me...I have been on holidays at the beach for 7 days and have only just got onto my computer...I'll try to only comment on posts directed at me at this point.

So we have had some interesting responses to my urging of students to not throw things away merely because they do not understand them yet....
talk talk talk
...All you guys seem to be interested in "testing yourself," but you seem afraid to try to test something inherent in the art that you are supposedly learning. (shake head)

Sorry Ben, before I continue, I just wanted to point out that I think it pretty childish the way you always talk down to people as if you are a scolding father speaking to his naughty children. Its an attitude you really should try and lose as it really is unbecoming someone of the rank and skill you claim to possess. [shakes head ]

Please, please, please use your brain when practicing this!!!

I am *NOT* saying that you should punch, leave your arm out, and stand there like a statue. I am saying, punch (without retracting) and notice how the space changes now that the hand is there, and how your own footwork around your arm changes the opportunities available to you and your opponent.

okay...so what are you doing with your hand after throwing that punch? Are you retracting it back staright away? If so, well then that sounds very different to what you first said. If not, then I still say you leave yourself exposed to danger. But here is your original comment:

You should be able to throw a punch, then with that hand still out there, generate enough power through your use of spine, knees, hips and and so on to knock the tori on his backside *WITHOUT* retracting the arm

That still reads to me like you are saying you are throwing a powerful punch (using your whole body...nothing new there) and then well...just leaving it out there...

Rubber Tanto said that he would "shudder to think what his sensei would do to him if he left a limb out to grasp." Why? How does your footwork and use of your spine affect his opportunity to grasp that arm? It's kind hard to grasp the arm if the hand is being shoved into the throat, or is coming in with repeated thrusts, or the footwork *AROUND* the arm of the arm holder is taking new angles such that "grasping" becomes a source of unbalance for the grabber. Does moving the hand vertically or horizontally (naturally THROUGH the body's Taijutsu) alter these opportunities or risks?

hmm...you make these statements as if you truly believe that EVRY punch you throw will not be deflected or evaded. That every punch you throw will find its mark. So what if that hand misses that throat? What if I throw that brutally powerful punch at his throat - and leave it out - and he flanks perfectly and now has me vulnerable, *AND* with an arm sticking out in mid-air because I thought it was going to be SO powerful and I was so confidant that it was going to hit his throat that I commited completely to it and left it out there?

There are a *LOT* of things that can and will go on with that "arm out."

If you cannot control someone with your arm out, then your Taijutsu is not as good as you think. You should take this as an indication that you need to look more closely at what the art is teaching BEFORE tossing it in the trash bin.

-ben

Wow, that is pretty sad coming from a man of your rank. I have never tossed my art in the trash. I have always just said it is very important (in my opinion) to use randori and pressure testing with my kata training to improve ones taijutsu. Perhaps you feel threatened by such comments and thats why whenever someone suggests it you decide to personally attack the quality of their taijutsu and belittle them to tray and make yourself sound somewhat more important. I don't know. But I find it amazing that you think you have the right to say such things.

You say much Ben but when asked specific question you seem to become quiet just like when I asked you if you have ever tested your kukan theory on a resistant uke in the BJK on MAP and you never answered. Don't bother answering now. I really don't care anymore either way. We'll stick to the topic at hand. It really shows the your true character.

I never said I cannot control someone with my arm out. I wasn't even talking about complete control of an opponent. I was just talking about a punch....Oh wait are you saying that if I leave my arm out against an experienced martial artist like my sensei (8 dans higher than me) that I would be able to control him? I would like to see that, to better understand it and improve my already pathetic taijutsu. Have you ever tested THIS theory on a resistant uke? A uke of the same skill level as you? Would you be able to film it and show it to me so that I (and obviously my sensei) can better understand that which you say? If you cannot film it, could you visit another BJK sensei from this board, test your theory UNDER RESISTANCE and have him post the outcome? Do I really ask for much?

Otherwise...all you are doing is talking, making yourself seem wise and all skilled and all others that don't agree, worthless and poor at their art, and I read a great line in a book once (Zen in the martial arts) In a nutshell it read: "You can't lengthen your line of knowledge by trying to shorten your opponent's line. What they know is what they know." And I live by it.

Many people OUTSIDE of the bujinkan said they believed the BJK to be a useless art. I have met with many and in friendly training/randori I have proved that this art can be effective, to them and to myself. I have gained their respect for this art. I have fortified my love for it. I have seen what my sensei can do in this art under pressure. I have seen our high ranks do this. And it is this - facts and visual proof - that made my love for this art well grounded. From you I am yet to see anything line after line of rolly eyes, head shakes and slander. Maybe I am not as high ranked as you in the BJK, Ben. But I have 25 years experience, I have been in real life threatening situations and have worked in an idustry that found me in many an altercation, so there could be a slim chance that I can talk from some experience too.

~Nick

(I look forward to a possible lengthy reply filled with head shakes, wagging fingers, sighs, eye rolls and comments about how poor my taijutsu must be and how I just don't get it. Possibly even parsed to partial sentences)

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Sorry Ben, before I continue, I just wanted to point out that I think it pretty childish the way you always talk down to people as if you are a scolding father speaking to his naughty children. Its an attitude you really should try and lose as it really is unbecoming someone of the rank and skill you claim to possess. [shakes head ]

I don't have any problem with that. What I feel we need more of in the Bujinkan are a couple of honest-to-goodness Führers who has the guts to tell us that what we're doing is wrong, not some snob who goes on and on about naturalness long before most of us have lost the tension in our shoulders.

okay...so what are you doing with your hand after throwing that punch?

I don't think Ben has decided yet. In any case, I don't see why he'd need to at this point.

That still reads to me like you are saying you are throwing a powerful punch (using your whole body...nothing new there) and then well...just leaving it out there...

This seems to me to be based on a confirmatory bias.

hmm...you make these statements as if you truly believe that EVRY punch you throw will not be deflected or evaded.

The risk for that significantly decreases if you're not punching straight into his guard. Kind of why it's SOP in various places for tori to lower the front arm when performing ichimonji no kata.

That every punch you throw will find its mark. So what if that hand misses that throat? What if I throw that brutally powerful punch at his throat - and leave it out - and he flanks perfectly and now has me vulnerable, *AND* with an arm sticking out in mid-air because I thought it was going to be SO powerful and I was so confidant that it was going to hit his throat that I commited completely to it and left it out there?

Who says that the attack is going to be over-committed?

Perhaps you feel threatened by such comments and thats why whenever someone suggests it you decide to personally attack the quality of their taijutsu and belittle them to tray and make yourself sound somewhat more important. I don't know. But I find it amazing that you think you have the right to say such things.

Something I personally do claim to know about Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is how it should feel being on the receiving end of it. My experience training with people who spar regularly tells me that their taijutsu isn't giving them the results they should.

 

[bencole]

Rubber Tanto, please read Nimravus' post very carefully. He hit the nail on the head more than once.

Sorry Ben, before I continue, I just wanted to point out that I think it pretty childish the way you always talk down to people as if you are a scolding father speaking to his naughty children. Its an attitude you really should try and lose as it really is unbecoming someone of the rank and skill you claim to possess.

People benefit from my bluntness. There are far too many people in the Bujinkan who are afraid to correct people or tell them they are wrong. I do not have that fear. Granted, that presumes that I actually know what I am talking about. Nevertheless, you are completely free (1) to not believe that, (2) to ignore everything I say, and (3) to think I sound like a scolding father....

Just looking around the world, it is not understatement to say that there are quite a few children who need some stern guidance. Your mileage may vary.

okay...so what are you doing with your hand after throwing that punch?

As Nimravus said, it doesn't matter. It is an active part of the terrain without me pulling it back. Learn to deal with it!!!

That still reads to me like you are saying you are throwing a powerful punch (using your whole body...nothing new there) and then well...just leaving it out there...

Um... No, it doesn't. Please use your imagination to come up with a situation in which someone could punch and the arm still be out there.... Hmm... Whatever could that be?

hmm...you make these statements as if you truly believe that EVRY punch you throw will not be deflected or evaded. That every punch you throw will find its mark. So what if that hand misses that throat?

Why thank you, Mr. Tanto. I guess if my hand misses its mark or is deflected, then my hand is still out there....

Now, I could pull it back and try to "recock my rubberband gun" or I could continue to use my Taijutsu *WITHOUT* recocking. If the foundation of my Taijutsu is built properly, I do not need to "recock" in order to generate knock-down power.

I repeat: If you *CANNOT* generate knock-down power *EVEN ON A COMPLIANT PARTNER* with your arm extended, then your Taijutsu is lacking. Once you can do that, then you start to ratchet up the dynamics.

What if I throw that brutally powerful punch at his throat - and leave it out - and he flanks perfectly and now has me vulnerable, *AND* with an arm sticking out in mid-air because I thought it was going to be SO powerful and I was so confidant that it was going to hit his throat that I commited completely to it and left it out there?

You clearly are not using Taijutsu properly if you over-commit to a punch in order to ensure that it is "powerful." Sorry, dude.

And how precisely did he mysteriously outflank you? Teleport? What is keeping you from moving your own feet toward him, away from him, pulling your elbow toward your belly, or moving your arm such that it is between you and him? You speak as though you want someone to stand there with their arm out and have someone walk around behind them to punch them? (shake head).

Again, clearly, you are not "getting it."

You say much Ben but when asked specific question you seem to become quiet just like when I asked you if you have ever tested your kukan theory on a resistant uke in the BJK on MAP and you never answered. Don't bother answering now. I really don't care anymore either way. We'll stick to the topic at hand. It really shows the your true character.

I have tried to answer every question that has been asked of me on every board. The answer is "Yes" to your question, btw.

are you saying that if I leave my arm out against an experienced martial artist like my sensei (8 dans higher than me) that I would be able to control him?

I am saying that you should *TRAIN* so that you *CAN* learn to control him with your arm out. (shake head)

If you cannot do it, your Taijutsu is lacking. Period.

Again, do not throw out something from the art just because you cannot do it right now. Try to understand *WHY* it is there in the first place. Clearly, you do not understand *WHY* it is there, and are more concerned about what others could do to you given that it is there. But you have not figured out *WHY* it is there....

When you understand *WHY* it is there, your concerns about what others could do to you given that it is there will disappear. It's quite simple actually.

Don't understand why --> Train --> Still don't understand why --> Train more -- Understand why

Otherwise...all you are doing is talking, making yourself seem wise and all skilled and all others that don't agree

Actually, I would estimate that a vast majority of the people who visit Japan regularly and understand what Soke is teaching agree with my stances on these things. There is no need to "add things" to the Bujinkan in order to make it work. You need to understand how the Bujinkan works.

Rubber, how many hours have you trained in Japan with the Japanese? Seriously....

If you do not understand what the Japanese are teaching, it behooves you to figure it out if you want to claim to be learning this art. This is not a "Japan elitist" statement. It is simply fact. The more exposure you get to the Japanese and their way of teaching and learning the art, the greater an understanding of the art you will garner.

Many people OUTSIDE of the bujinkan said they believed the BJK to be a useless art.

Who cares?

It sounds like you do....

-ben

 

[Rook]

Mr. Cole, why don't you answer Rubber Tanto's question instead of insulting him for asking? I read your post and you don't seem to offer him anything but disdain for even having a question.

 

[Seattletcj]

I have tried to answer every question that has been asked of me on every board.
-ben

Have you found a clip of a good uke attack?
There must be at least one clip out of the hundreds available that someone could point to that shows a "good" attack , right?
I've even tried asking someone via pm to send me a clip in private.
Nothing.
I'm interesting in seeing where people are coming from.

 

[Bigshadow]

Have you found a clip of a good uke attack?
There must be at least one clip out of the hundreds available that someone could point to that shows a "good" attack , right?
I've even tried asking someone via pm to send me a clip in private.
Nothing.
I'm interesting in seeing where people are coming from.

I have an idea... Why don't YOU post a video clip of YOU showing a good attack? It would be far easier than critiquing 3rd party videos.

 

[Seattletcj]

So you cant point to one, Bigshadow ? :idunno:

 

[saru1968]

So you cant point to one, Bigshadow ? :idunno:

But if you know what one looks like it should be easy for you to film one, most of us of course do not know..:mst:

 

[saru1968]

Mr. Cole, why don't you answer Rubber Tanto's question instead of insulting him for asking? I read your post and you don't seem to offer him anything but disdain for even having a question.

I read Ben's response and makes sense to me, so question IS answer but maybe its not tTHE answer YOU want..:barf:

 

[Rook]

So you cant point to one, Bigshadow ? :idunno:

I don't think he can. If you get a chance, I would be interested in seeing what BBT trained resistantly would look like; everything I have both in person and online to date has been extremely compliant.

 

[Seattletcj]

I'm not looking for something with resistance. I'm also not asking anyone to critique anything. There are hundreds of videos on youtube and google available for public viewing. I'm curious what members here consider to be a good attack, in order to set up some context.
Asking me to post a video of myself is a little beyond what we are talking about (although a clever diversion) . I never claimed to be able to do anything worth viewing.

Many of the videos available are done by very high ranking practitioners, so its not like all the clips available are of amatures.
I think its very telling that not one person will come forward with a clip. Does that mean there are NO clips that show a good attack?

 

[bencole]

Asking me to post a video of myself is a little beyond what we are talking about (although a clever diversion)

Actually, not at all. You seem to know what you are talking about. Please show us....

All of the "hundreds of videos" that I've seen online of Bujinkan instructors are those who are *INSTRUCTING*.

When someone instructs, they are trying to show something. That usually includes making sure that the student can actually *SEE* things.

I think its very telling that not one person will come forward with a clip. Does that mean there are NO clips that show a good attack?

Telling what?

Would you like me to post video footage of your teacher instructing so you can criticize how the attacks are "not real" and therefore the guy cannot fight or does not know what he is doing?

(shake head)

-ben

 

[Rook]

I'm not looking for something with resistance. I'm also not asking anyone to critique anything. There are hundreds of videos on youtube and google available for public viewing. I'm curious what members here consider to be a good attack, in order to set up some context.

Ok.

Asking me to post a video of myself is a little beyond what we are talking about (although a clever diversion). I never claimed to be able to do anything worth viewing.

Ok. I was just wondering if there is any way out of this mess where nothing is considered a sample of the art and there really is nothing that can be taken as representative.

Many of the videos available are done by very high ranking practitioners, so its not like all the clips available are of amatures.
I think its very telling that not one person will come forward with a clip. Does that mean there are NO clips that show a good attack?

It very well might be the case that there are none.

 

[Don Roley]

Ok. I was just wondering if there is any way out of this mess where nothing is considered a sample of the art and there really is nothing that can be taken as representative.

If you are looking for a video clip, let me explain why I would never put a clip of myself doing this.

And you might want to go over to Amazon.com and look up my review of the book knife fighting in Folsom prison. You will clearly see that I talk about reading it and practicing against the types of things that people in prison are learning- rather than any type of sport attack. I posted that a few years ago after going over it with some friends in America that had some good pads.

So no trying to hint that I have never done anything like this and are scared to try it, ok?

When you train in forms and such, you try to make your movements as perfect as possible. There is a reason why a good teacher will correct you to the exact angle your legs and knees should be in.

But Peytonn Quinn (no stranger to violence) has put it best when he said that real combat (or anything close) is going to be messier than training. And if you train messy, then you will have nothing in a real fight.

So, if I were to tape the sessions I had going against a guy using the prison techniques, they would be of fairly messy taijutsu. They would not reflect the training I do outside of that. And it would not be obvious that I only had what level skill I did in the clips because I had other training that was done to a higher level of expectation.

The clip would not be something that I would want others to hold up as an example to copy and learn from. All it would serve is to somehow prove something to others. And quite simply, I really do not care enough about what those people might think to go to the trouble. It does not seem to be worth the effort, let alone the fear that others might think that the mistakes I know will crop up are something to be emulated, to satisfy the curiosity of others about my abilities.

If I were to put up clips (don't hold your breath) it would be of something that I would not be scared of others copying as best they can and looking for lessons on how to do things. At this point, even that does not appeal to me.