A lot of people say that realistic kata based application karate can't be used in competition, but I'm not so sure. What could it look like? How could realistic kata application be used in competition?
Realistic Kata Application Karate and Competition - What could it look like?
- Thread starter Makalakumu
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Happy-Papi
Green Belt
I'm not a Karate guy but I took Karate lessons with my father when I was very young. Now I still go and mix with Karate guys at the dojos and saw some high rankers unintentionally move or use diluted combat katas during competition. Probably it is because of muscle memory and the years spent in Karate but since it is a competition, the blows and targets are not intended to really damage their opponents. The movements I saw were just parts of the katas broken apart and mixed and are not as elaborate as we see in the katas but the techniques are still there. Usually when I see one using a kata like technique is the outcome almost often results to a score or a knock down.
The lower rankers I saw using the same techniques are not as successful and polished as the high rankers but they are getting there. Probably lots of patience, practice and time is needed plus some diluting of the techniques if these were to be used in competitions.
The lower rankers I saw using the same techniques are not as successful and polished as the high rankers but they are getting there. Probably lots of patience, practice and time is needed plus some diluting of the techniques if these were to be used in competitions.
OP
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I wonder if there could be room for a more open sparring format and some demonstration of technique.
I think that there is more scope for prearranged sparring than there is for realistic kata application. The prearranged sparring we used to do simulated competition. It was a combination of avoiding a strike and then moving in to counter strike.
For me, kata application is already in close and many of the techniques would not be allowed in competition. Kata application was never intended as sport. :asian:
For me, kata application is already in close and many of the techniques would not be allowed in competition. Kata application was never intended as sport. :asian:
Isnt there already Kata based free sparring (outside of actual competition)? I heard someone talking about it on a podcast.
As for actual sporting competition, im sure you could use some of it if the context fitted, however, i think for it to work completely youd need a competition specifically for either using methods found in Kata, or making your own Kata then demonstrating their application on a noncompliant partner.
As for actual sporting competition, im sure you could use some of it if the context fitted, however, i think for it to work completely youd need a competition specifically for either using methods found in Kata, or making your own Kata then demonstrating their application on a noncompliant partner.
Our bunkai is kata based free sparring. It would be hard to make it work for competition though because you can't use a totally non-compliant partner. What we do is based on a predicted response. For example a strike to the groin is likely to see the hips move back and the body bend forward. If I was the non-compliant partner I really don't relish the thought of being regularly belted in that region, therefore to demonstrate the bunkai, I will act as I believe I would if that strike was delivered. Also, in bunkai the strikes are delivered slow enough for your partner to respond with a block. This signals that your strike was ineffective and you proceed to the next step in the kata. In reality, at that distance and with normal speed it is very unlikely that the defence will succeed. Therefore you would be struck. So, in this kata based practice we break it up into bite size pieces of two or three techniques.
You might say that you could trick it up for competition but then it becomes choreography. In a recent grading I produced nine sequences from Seipai kata. The only instruction I gave to my partner for most of them was; "Just attack me with a left right combination". Some I waited for the right but most times the right didn't have a chance to arrive. In all instances what followed the initial attack was, from the attacker's perspective, not rehearsed. Of course, even in this situation, over time your partner picks up on what is coming next and goes along with it. You might be surprised that even in that controlled and known situation, the partner will go down ahead of time due to his reaction to your counter attack. :asian:
OP
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This sounds like the kata competitions I've seen in some traditional jujutsu schools. Those can be very cool, but they are basically choreographed routines with a partner, kind of like a dance.
I'm wondering if there could be room for another combative sport of sorts. Perhaps something that resembles MMA?
I'm wondering if there could be room for another combative sport of sorts. Perhaps something that resembles MMA?
After some consideration, im inclined to think as i think some others have said that youd have to trade off too much to make it viable. Unless you had a form of competition scored based creating your own Kata to resolve a situation, then demonstrating it in controlled conditions, i dont think itd work.
For instance, administrator says make a Kata, or take a sequence out of a Kata, for... defense... against a grab and punch type thing. So you go do that, youre on a time limit. You come out, and demonstrate the Kata. Then you square off and the other person grabs and punches. You do your thing, they 'react' much like KMan described, though without making your life so easy that you could get away with anything. In the end, youre scored based on things like putting yourself in a dominant position, damage dealt in a short space of time, and you get points based on your efficiency.
Even thatd be hard to make work. Im not entirely convinced that without making Kata specific for competition that you could make a Kata competition work.
For instance, administrator says make a Kata, or take a sequence out of a Kata, for... defense... against a grab and punch type thing. So you go do that, youre on a time limit. You come out, and demonstrate the Kata. Then you square off and the other person grabs and punches. You do your thing, they 'react' much like KMan described, though without making your life so easy that you could get away with anything. In the end, youre scored based on things like putting yourself in a dominant position, damage dealt in a short space of time, and you get points based on your efficiency.
Even thatd be hard to make work. Im not entirely convinced that without making Kata specific for competition that you could make a Kata competition work.
This was tried a year or so ago at a CMA tournament. It was a hot mess.
The only thing it showed is that people (not their fault in the end)...
-- didn't understand what they were learning
-- didn't understand the principles behind forms
-- didn't understand basic application of technique
and so it ultimately showed their teachers didn't get it either. Or if they did get it, they weren't passing it on properly or at all.
Freefighting is kata unbound & the way it's meant to be. Spontaneous, reactive, proactive, leading, following, starting, finishing, etc... Much like communication between two people speaking the same language. We have the ability to speak but until somebody teaches us how to speak by reading & building verbal communication skills, we're just taller, weaker, less furry monkies. BUT... once those skills are taught & comprehended & used... then things become a whole different ball game.
In my opinion anyway... I'm going to eat a banana & pick fleas from the person in the cube next to me now...
The only thing it showed is that people (not their fault in the end)...
-- didn't understand what they were learning
-- didn't understand the principles behind forms
-- didn't understand basic application of technique
and so it ultimately showed their teachers didn't get it either. Or if they did get it, they weren't passing it on properly or at all.
Freefighting is kata unbound & the way it's meant to be. Spontaneous, reactive, proactive, leading, following, starting, finishing, etc... Much like communication between two people speaking the same language. We have the ability to speak but until somebody teaches us how to speak by reading & building verbal communication skills, we're just taller, weaker, less furry monkies. BUT... once those skills are taught & comprehended & used... then things become a whole different ball game.
In my opinion anyway... I'm going to eat a banana & pick fleas from the person in the cube next to me now...
And that is exactly my experience, even up to very high ranking karateka.
Please don't eat all the bananas and would you just like to check out the itch behind my left ear?
chinto
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first of all for Okinawan Karate, and the Classical kata of that art, there are on avaridge 5 to 10+ techniques for every move in that kata..... so some may be some one basic, and others very advanced. the next problem is many would result in real injury, broken bones, damaged joints, and even in some instances death. the art was developed where to loose the fight was usually to DIE! The other problem is that many do not understand the principles behind the kata, and many of its implications. some are techniques for very close range,others for farther away. but the are all intended to end the altercation quickly!
You do not want people using some of those techniques in competition. reminds me of a video I saw of a match between a karateka and an MMA fighter once. the karateka knocked the mma guy down, and as he had not trained for this kind of thing nearly as much as self defense he almost kicked him in the head and then just missed dropping a knee on his groin! even the commentator remarked that he had for a second dropped into a street defense mode. ( he had had is bell rung just before he landed the knock down punch... ) the ref stopped it for a second, and cautioned the karateka and they went back at it.. but you could see it scared,and rightly so the MMA guy! after the fight he apologized to the MMA guy, ( who i think won on points ) for that slip up. lots of rules in all the MMA stuff.. even the very early UFC for fighter safety.
You do not want people using some of those techniques in competition. reminds me of a video I saw of a match between a karateka and an MMA fighter once. the karateka knocked the mma guy down, and as he had not trained for this kind of thing nearly as much as self defense he almost kicked him in the head and then just missed dropping a knee on his groin! even the commentator remarked that he had for a second dropped into a street defense mode. ( he had had is bell rung just before he landed the knock down punch... ) the ref stopped it for a second, and cautioned the karateka and they went back at it.. but you could see it scared,and rightly so the MMA guy! after the fight he apologized to the MMA guy, ( who i think won on points ) for that slip up. lots of rules in all the MMA stuff.. even the very early UFC for fighter safety.
Plus a ref to break it up before anyone could go too bloodlusty. Tis still the case.
A recently made thread about a fighter being hospitalized kinda demonstrates beatings continuing after unconsciousness.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...ed-By-Group-In-Massive-Street-Fight-In-Brazil
Jackthekarateguy
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well, i recently did a very short seminar in Sport karate, which was interesting. The training session after this at we did some light free sparring. Now I started out just using the specialized sparring techniques and combos I learkaned, but they were designed around a certain set of rules, once those rules were removed however...
Basically, my partner started using kata/bunkai techniques and I got mullered. There were throws from seienchin and Shisochin and lots of those sneaky knee bump things Tai Chi and Goju guys alike seem to be fond of. So in short, kata works in sparring. Problem is, competition rules inhibits their use.
Basically, my partner started using kata/bunkai techniques and I got mullered. There were throws from seienchin and Shisochin and lots of those sneaky knee bump things Tai Chi and Goju guys alike seem to be fond of. So in short, kata works in sparring. Problem is, competition rules inhibits their use.
