Real World Attacks

[Earl Weiss]

The issue was raised in another thread about the most common real world attack (not sparring situations.). Now we need some parameters. I wish to limit this to Civilians and non weapons. Also to adults. I am sure there is plenty of pushing and shoving on the playground. I also want to limit it to the first overt physical act. We could spend volumes on the precursers. It should involve some sort of confrontation as opposed to an ambush style mugging / attack.

My OPINION is that it is the right hand punch to the head. The basis for this opinion had it's genesis after reading Peyton Quinn's Bouncer's guide to Barrroom Brawling (1990) and "Real Fighting" Following this around the same time Al Gore's interet provided caught on video examples and this opinion became solidified.

Moast recently Black Belt Mag. Aug. 2012 page 64 "Self Defense 101" published an analysis of attacks. Details are provided about the search parameters but still somewhat scarce. Admittedly the sample of 50 wasn't huge.
Results were 78% were punches. 85% were with the right hand, and 97% of the punches were to the face.

Grab 10% and Kick 8% Would have been interesting if there was a statement as to followups to a grab. (i.e. grabbing with one hand then punching with the other. )

Defender's first reaction - Punch 68% , all to the face. Grab 18%.

In 52% of videos one person ended up on the ground. I was at a seminar with Don Wilson who commented on the 98% go the ground idea saying that in his experience from his bouncing days that reflected one h\guy ending up on the ground.

Please share your opinions and basis therefore.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I train with a couple of high ranking police officers. One night one of them told me that if all you practiced wad a defence against a right hook or straight punch to the face then you'd be right in the vast majority of encounters. After this subject was raised in the other thread I discussed it with a friend who has been a bouncer for over ten years. He agreed that almost every fight that breaks out in the clubs and pubs that he works at start with a punch (or attempted punch) to the head. You will never find exact statistics on this subject, but talking with police and bouncers will give you a pretty good idea.

 

[Cyriacus]

From what ive seen, a punch to the head in some way shape or form.
Be it straight, hooked, haymaker, with a grab, without a grab, from the front, behind, side.

Just generally speaking.
That isnt the only start ive seen but - Obviously its not the only way. But Im not drawing from a big enough pool here to comment much on anything other than what the majority of first strikes are.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Based on my limited observations, the most common unarmed attack would indeed be the right hand haymaker to the head, with or without a grab. After that the most common attacks would probably be (in no particular order) left hand haymaker to the head, shove to the chest, football-style tackle, and headlock. (The headlock might be used to choke, to set up punches, or to direct the opponents head into a solid object.)

 

[Bill Mattocks]

IMHO, Americans like to throw haymakers to the head. And most are right-handed, so they throw the right hand to the head as the opening punch.

Unless it's a sucker punch or the guy is just amazingly fast, it's not that hard to block, slip, or redirect.

Then what?

 

[Gorilla]

I held various jobs in my youth that had physical confrontation...bouncer,repo man etc...lots of right hand haymakers...lots of pushing...the occasional picking up of what ever is handy....most people don't like to wrestle around on concrete...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The issue was raised in another thread about the most common real world attack (not sparring situations.).

For context, here is the original quote that I questioned:

Master Weiss hit the nail on the head, great post. I know we have discussed this subject to death and we are all sick and tired of it, but one thing I have never understood is if 99% of altercations start with someone throwing a face punch (and most people in the know will tell you this is the case), then how can you have a ruleset with no face punches and then tell students it is preparing them for self defence?

You (Master Weiss) had said 'vast majority' rather than quoting a statistic.

My response to the statistic quote was this: "If this figure is hard data, name a source who is "in the know" and where they get their figures. Is it the same source that provided the '90% of all fights go to the ground,' which is also bogus because the context represented as "all fights" was actually police officers apprehending suspects."

I wasn't questioning whether or not that attack was the most common; only the 99% statistic.

Now we need some parameters. I wish to limit this to Civilians and non weapons. Also to adults. I am sure there is plenty of pushing and shoving on the playground. I also want to limit it to the first overt physical act. We could spend volumes on the precursers. It should involve some sort of confrontation as opposed to an ambush style mugging / attack.

My OPINION is that it is the right hand punch to the head. The basis for this opinion had it's genesis after reading Peyton Quinn's Bouncer's guide to Barrroom Brawling (1990) and "Real Fighting" Following this around the same time Al Gore's interet provided caught on video examples and this opinion became solidified.

Moast recently Black Belt Mag. Aug. 2012 page 64 "Self Defense 101" published an analysis of attacks. Details are provided about the search parameters but still somewhat scarce. Admittedly the sample of 50 wasn't huge.
Results were 78% were punches. 85% were with the right hand, and 97% of the punches were to the face.

Grab 10% and Kick 8% Would have been interesting if there was a statement as to followups to a grab. (i.e. grabbing with one hand then punching with the other. )

Defender's first reaction - Punch 68% , all to the face. Grab 18%.

In 52% of videos one person ended up on the ground. I was at a seminar with Don Wilson who commented on the 98% go the ground idea saying that in his experience from his bouncing days that reflected one h\guy ending up on the ground.

Please share your opinions and basis therefore.

So in a sample size of 50 people who may or may not have all been from the same area, the conclusion is that a punch to the face is the first attack approximately 78% of the time in a real fight/altercation. While such a small sample size hardly qualifies as scientific when the nations population is many millions, 78% is more believable than 99%.

I definitely don't buy into the 98% of all fights go to the ground, unless 99% of all fights happen in bars, in which case I'm happy to take the bouncer at his word.

I don't really have an opinion about the exact percentages; the sample size and data collection method rendered the statistics that it rendered. The question that Ralph was asking in his post, and which others asked, was about the preparedness of a WTF taekwondoist for that particular attack and why WTF students are told that "it is preparing them for self defense." Whether that attack occurs 99% or 78% is unimportant in that context; all that matters is that it is a commonly encountered attack.

My response to Ralph on that subject was this:

"No competitive rule set is preparation for self defense. They all develop bad habbits of some kind and they all miss the mark in critical areas.

Secondly, I have never personally heard WTF sparring represented as being analgous to a violent altercation in any school where I have trained. Practical SD has always been a separate part of the class.

Finally, every guard has its purpose, pros and cons. Every guard leaves something vital open (high guard leave open your entire lower body and part of your torso, wherein most of your vitals are contained, and the genitalia, which is a popular target). Every guard does something effective, be it in or out of competition. Your arms can only guard but so much of your body, so everyone who is involved in any kind of fight sport finds ways to compensate for the uncovered areas. Usually through avoidance and distance management, the first of which is as important as guard and the second of which is more important than guard."

My questioning of the percentage was a perfunctory response to Ralph's throwing out an exact percentage; it was the rest of the post that held the real emphasis. Nobody disagreed with me and nobody, including Ralph, responded to it either.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I can be a sample size of more than 50 by myself...

I cannot say exactly how many attacks were what, but I will say that yes, the VAST majority (I would say 90% is a reasonable estimate) of the people who have gotten combative in the ER have thrown (or tried to throw) a punch. Most of the rest have simple tried to push their way out. I can think of one that tried to kick, a couple that have grabbed my arm, and one that tried to grab my throat.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think I can safely say that from the responses here so far that the punch to the face is the most common attack you will come accross. So, despite the fact that no ruleset for sparring will ever completely prepare you for self defence, if you were designing a ruleset to "best prepare" someone for what they will most likely encounter in a real altercation you would probably pencil in allowing face punches into the ruleset. That was the point being made in the other thread. I dont care if technically its 97% or 89% etc, the bottom line is that its highly likely that if you have to defend yourself for real this is an attack you will almost certainly come up against.

 

[Earl Weiss]

My response to Ralph on that subject was this:

"No competitive rule set is preparation for self defense. They all develop bad habbits of some kind and they all miss the mark in critical areas.

.

True enough, but this is far and awya the most common critical area. If we accept the 78% rule it is more than twice as likely than all other areas combined.

 

[puunui]

My OPINION is that it is the right hand punch to the head. The basis for this opinion had it's genesis after reading Peyton Quinn's Bouncer's guide to Barrroom Brawling (1990) and "Real Fighting"

I think you should re-read Real Fighting because I don't think you quite understood it the first time around. Also I notice your opinion is based on books and studies and not personal experience. Have you ever been in a self defense situation, and if so, did your attacker try to punch you in the head as his first move against you?

 

[harlan]

After reading this thread, I realize that I have been wasting my training time; I simply must learn how to defend myself in a bar-room. For those 'real world' attacks.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Bill is correct above. Most people are right-handed and therefore the majority will be right-handed attacks. The F.B.I. composed a study around 10+ years ago that studied real world edged-weapon attacks on officers & civilians over a ten year period. The predominate attack was a right-handed overhand attack with the edged-weapon held ice-pick style. I can't quote the specific % as I don't have the study in front of me, but from memory it was upper 80% of the time. This is a simple, gross-motor skill attack that is much easier to attempt/accomplish under duress than a more skill specific type of strike. This can translate to empty-hand attacks as well i.e. more people are still right-handed, most people aren't really trained and the good ole fashioned haymaker/sucker punch doesn't require specific skill to throw (connecting with it may be a different story).

Another way to look at it is that IF someone attacks in a fashion other than a right-handed haymaker/sucker punch, then they have probably trained in 'something'. If they go for a grab and/or throw then perhaps they've had high school or college wrestling or some sort of MMA. It is far easier to punch someone (or at least make the attempt as far as a gross-motor skill haymaker/sucker punch) than it is to grab, tackle or throw someone.

 

[seasoned]

Bill is correct above. Most people are right-handed and therefore the majority will be right-handed attacks. The F.B.I. composed a study around 10+ years ago that studied real world edged-weapon attacks on officers & civilians over a ten year period. The predominate attack was a right-handed overhand attack with the edged-weapon held ice-pick style. I can't quote the specific % as I don't have the study in front of me, but from memory it was upper 80% of the time. This is a simple, gross-motor skill attack that is much easier to attempt/accomplish under duress than a more skill specific type of strike. This can translate to empty-hand attacks as well i.e. more people are still right-handed, most people aren't really trained and the good ole fashioned haymaker/sucker punch doesn't require specific skill to throw (connecting with it may be a different story).

Another way to look at it is that IF someone attacks in a fashion other than a right-handed haymaker/sucker punch, then they have probably trained in 'something'. If they go for a grab and/or throw then perhaps they've had high school or college wrestling or some sort of MMA. It is far easier to punch someone (or at least make the attempt as far as a gross-motor skill haymaker/sucker punch) than it is to grab, tackle or throw someone.

Good points, I also find that after the haymaker comes the grab for lack of something else other then another punch.

 

[Gorilla]

I think I can safely say that from the responses here so far that the punch to the face is the most common attack you will come accross. So, despite the fact that no ruleset for sparring will ever completely prepare you for self defence, if you were designing a ruleset to "best prepare" someone for what they will most likely encounter in a real altercation you would probably pencil in allowing face punches into the ruleset. That was the point being made in the other thread. I dont care if technically its 97% or 89% etc, the bottom line is that its highly likely that if you have to defend yourself for real this is an attack you will almost certainly come up against.

Ralph this is were you go in the wrong direction WTF sparing was not set up to imulate a Self Defense situation it is by and large a kicking sport with some punching.

It has self defense applications but it's is a sport not a complete SD system.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think that a lot depends on what you do when the punch comes. Slip the punch, he winds up and throws another. Block the punch with a hard block, the impact tells his nervous system to toss the other hand immediately. Redirect the punch, he is momentarily confused as his nervous system is not providing clear feedback on what just happened.

What I think matters most is not the avoidance of the first punch, but what you do once the punch is thrown at you. And that, of course, is what martial arts training is all about. There are a universe of options, many of them equally appropriate (or inappropriate) for the given situation.

So while I agree that if a person was simply good at blocking a thrown right hand punch to the head they'd be able to deal with the vast majority of attacks they might encounter, that's just the opening gambit. He throws, you block, NOW WHAT?

 

[Earl Weiss]

I think you should re-read Real Fighting because I don't think you quite understood it the first time around. Also I notice your opinion is based on books and studies and not personal experience. Have you ever been in a self defense situation, and if so, did your attacker try to punch you in the head as his first move against you?

Well, I think i understood it. While at RMCAR I spoke to Peyton Quinn about it at length.

In the very few real world encounters I have personaly had, the other person never got the opportunity to punch me.

 

[puunui]

Well, I think i understood it. While at RMCAR I spoke to Peyton Quinn about it at length.

In my opinion, Peyton's RMCAT program is one big modified series of hogu drills and one big endorsement for the full contact training against a live opponent methodology that is the centerpiece of the modern competition training methods.

He also speaks about the first moves in a physical encounter, of which the face punch is a second or third move. He says face punch generally is not the first move, except in blind side attacks, which you specifically excluded in your first post creating this thread. Instead he speaks of finger poking to the chest and/or shoving as the first move from an aggressor in his book.

 

[seasoned]

In my opinion, Peyton's RMCAT program is one big modified series of hogu drills and one big endorsement for the full contact training against a live opponent methodology that is the centerpiece of the modern competition training methods.

He also speaks about the first moves in a physical encounter, of which the face punch is a second or third move. He says face punch generally is not the first move, except in blind side attacks, which you specifically excluded in your first post creating this thread. Instead he speaks of finger poking to the chest and/or shoving as the first move from an aggressor in his book.

I see the finger poke to the chest or shove as a gauge for their next shot that is coming. It is all about distancing in and out of the dojo.

 

[puunui]

After reading this thread, I realize that I have been wasting my training time; I simply must learn how to defend myself in a bar-room. For those 'real world' attacks.

And given the fact that the overwhelming majority of taekwondo students today in the US are children who won't be defending themselves in a bar room situation, or even in a school yard situation due to zero violence policies, the whole argument about the dire and essential need for "self defense" training in taekwondo schools is, well, a waste of time. If people think that taekwondo does not teach self defense, then they should go join another (tiny) hard core tiny self defense school. Obviously, the literally millions who train in kukki taekwondo dojang, are getting something out of the experience, something they consider more important than "self defense".