Real quick, here is some PROOF

[Darksoul]

-The "proof" is in the faith. Josh, you are very adamant and passionate about your beliefs. That is a good thing if it helps you lead a good life. People are strange, so the song goes, and sometimes they need a different kind of proof than you have offered. Sometimes faith isn't enough. If God exists, then I can only imagine we shall learn of him in this life or during the afterlife. You seem determined to convince us, however, that our knowing his existence is crucial for something, perhaps salvation? What He has to offer may truly be wonderful, but what if its not what the rest of us need? Do we need to be saved, and if so, from what? The possibility of missing the Kingdom of Heaven? We decide our own paths through life, guided by what we choose to believe in, or, if you will, guided by a higher power. I honestly do not know if I serve a certain purpose in this life. I am grateful to exist, to be able to move, to feel, to love and dance and sing and practice kung fu. And I do hope there is something to look forward to after death. Right now, for myself, my desire is to lead a good life, be there for those in need, and journey till the next level.

A---)

 

[michaeledward]

Josh, perhaps you remember there was a 'parable';

something about those who light a lantern, and how they shouldn't then put it under a bushel, but rather raise it high for all to see. Seems to me that story was about drawing others to the light.

Seems every time you post in here, other run away ... figuratively at least. Your lantern isn't drawing anybody in. I have to image that is not good. Perhaps you should discuss that with your spiritual counselor.

Now, concerning the Proof you mentioned; first the statement

'After Jesus Rose from the Dead".

I will grant you that we have some historical evidence that Jesus (joshua son of joseph) actually existed, but the whole 'rose from the dead' part ...well, now I can't just take your word, and the bible as evidence that such a thing happened. So, everything you describe as a result of this statement is in similar doubt.

Sorry Charlie, we want Tuna's that taste great.

 

[Mark Weiser]

Actually Josh lol. You do not know a thing about me lol. I was an ordained Pastor/Minister in the Full Gospel movement for a number of years(nearly 20 years) and yes I too "Spoke in tongues and did the full Spirit thing" I was also involved as a leader in the Messainic movement as well to get close to the Jewish people and lead them to this Jesus.

So I speak from experience and knowledge on what motivates one to "be full of the Holy Spirit" but I tell you that Judaism which Christianity claims to be from or completing the so called holes in the law has such a deep and rich Spiritual value remember you can not go wrong with the orginial product it does not need to fixed or revamped to make it better. I can discuss each point of the Messiah syndrome that this Jesus supposedly completed in a private discussion.

 

[Flatlander]

i'm done, hallelujah!!

Praise ye the Lord. Take your sermon elsewhere.

 

[SenseiBear]

i'm done!!

OH, maybe ther IS a god...

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hey, Josh...here's a little song, just for you and all the other sadistic Christians out there:

"Hide witch, hide
The Good Folk come to burn thee
Their keen enjoyment hid behind
The Gothic Mask of duty."

Three smacks with a copy of Bunyan's, "Pilgrim's Progress," a book that did a helluva better job of capitalizing and quoting.

 

[Josh]

Mark, i guess you to claim to be a Christian no more. There's a reason for that, here's the Parable of the Sower Christ talked about:

1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop--a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9He who has ears, let him hear."
10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'[1] 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

 

[Flatlander]

Look at the title of the thread. Where's the proof? Is this Josh's personal sermonizing thread?

 

[Ceicei]

Look at the title of the thread. Where's the proof? Is this Josh's personal sermonizing thread?

I think you know the answer to your question....

- Ceicei

 

[Josh]

go to one of those Churches, ask someone there about it.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

go to one of those Churches, ask someone there about it.

Nope. You've said you have proof...don't pawn it off on those churches or expect us to take the time to go there. YOU provide the proof, lad. So far you've done nothing but preach.

Here's the rub, Josh. You and another person in the forum, Parmandjack, claimed evidence or proof to back up your beliefs. We're still waiting for it.


Regards,


Steve

 

[kenpo tiger]

MODERATOR!!!!

This thread too - I'm gone.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Here's the rub, Josh. You and another person in the forum, Parmandjack, claimed evidence or proof to back up your beliefs. We're still waiting for it.

Both of them also said they were finished, and then proceeded to post some more on the same subject. Makes you wonder why they said they were done.

 

[Scout_379]

Two pages in one day! there really should be an emoticon for: *whistles*

I have an idea...use italics...much easier on the eyes eh?

 

[punisher73]

Here's the main problem I have with alot of Penecostal churches...They LOVE to quote Paul in Corinthians about the whole "speaking in tongues" thing, but it isn't the same thing that was talked about in the Book of Acts.

In Acts, the word used for "speaking in tongues" is a word that means it was a known language (forgive me for not having all of my reference books right here with me). When the disiciples preached the gospel, the people heard it in their own language. IE: Greeks heard greek, etc.

In Corinthians, as with ALL the letters Paul wrote, were written to address SPECIFIC CHURCH PROBLEMS to that specific geographical church. The church in Corinth was heavily made up of people who had recently converted from a religion that worship Dionysus (sp?). As part of that religion's practice they would work themselves up into a frenzy and high emotional state and then start "speaking in tongues" and other hysterics (note here the word that Paul uses is not the same word as in Acts which was for a known language). Read what Paul is really saying, he downplays what they do and says that he can do it also, but what benefit does it have to everyone else. Then he goes on to talk about love and how that is more beneficial to a Christian and their witness to nonbelievers. Also, speaking and discerning in tongues is mentioned as a "gift of the spirit", but again this is a known language and not some unknown "prayer language"

Notice that this is ONLY addressed like this in the letter to this church and NOT something that Jesus talked about. When he taught his disiciples to pray he didn't talk about a hidden "prayer language" that you needed. Again if you look to early Christian churches you will see an influence on Gnosticism there. This group was all about the "hidden secrets" of what Jesus taught and that only certain people really had the secrets and if they couldn't speak in tongues than they weren't "really Christians". In fact, in other new testament books it warns of this very thing, of people claiming a hidden or secret knowledge and then that Jesus taught everything that you needed to know.

The letters of Paul are one sided conversations. It's like playing Jeopardy, we know what the answer is, but we don't know what the question is. He wrote specific answers to help churches with their specific problems. Paul is NOT gospel, he gives his interpretation of things based on his experience and education (let's not forget that Paul was Saul, who was educated as a pharisee).

 

[Josh]

if you want, read the last 5-6 verses of MARK in the Bible, and there, Jesus says that one of the signs people will see that someone believes in Him is Speaking In Tounges. And more proof of Jesus is how Paul who hated Christians became one himself. Jesus met him there on the Damascus Road.

 

[punisher73]

Reread what I said about the usage of the words in relation to speaking in tongues. Verses 9-20 in that part of the book of Mark were written well after the rest of the gospel and aren't included in the most reliable or oldest versions. If you take those verses literally, you will also be like the Church of God based out of Clevland, Tennessee (not to be confused with the Church of God based out of Anderson, Indiana) that takes all of those verses to heart and has snake handling as part of their service. Oh, and if a member is bitten and dies they take that to mean the person had unconfessed sins.


Jesus references speaking a known language that a person hasn't learned yet in those verses ( greek- dialektos) and later fulfilled with the gifts of the spirit. He does NOT talk about "speaking in tongues" as Paul referenced in Corinthians (greek- glosalalia), nor does he say anything about a "prayer language" that is unknown to everyone.

 

[Mark Weiser]

Punisher I am impressed. Good Job!

Anyway sorry I was out of town today and could not get to the PC. Anyway in reference to the so called tongues movement. First let us use the gift HaShem has given us it is called logic. The systematic useage of languages and grammar to understand the CONTEXT of the words that are used. Now we should look and remember that God is the same yesterday,today and tommorrow correct?

This being the case let us take a journey back to what you would call the Old Testament. We shall see if the Holy Spirit was in action as he is claimed to be in the New Testament. SIDE NOTE the Holy Spirit is alleged to be part of the God Head so in a sense he is God according to this stand point.



The Holy Spirit Empowers God’s Servants for Service In Numbers 11.25-26 the helpers appointed by Moses to assist him in his work are to receive the same ‘spirit’ as he enjoys - ‘the Lord took some of the spirit that was upon him, and put it upon the seventy elders, and when the spirit rested upon them they prophesied’. The activity of the Spirit is revealed in prophesying, but in this case as a sign of permanent enduement with the Spirit of wisdom..

Now God imparts or plants the Holy Spirit on people in the Old Testament. Those folks were given power to see the future, heal the sick, etc... there has never been an instance that I can recall in the OT that when a servant of HIM has ever spoken in another language. Remember God is the same yesterday, today and tommorrow.

So let us use logic and see that God did not suddenly need to change his plans or establish a New way of speaking or interacting with men. He has been doing a fine job way before this Jesus was even born.

 

[SenseiBear]

In Acts, the word used for "speaking in tongues" is a word that means it was a known language (forgive me for not having all of my reference books right here with me). When the disiciples preached the gospel, the people heard it in their own language. IE: Greeks heard greek, etc.

Now THAT is quite a trick... (dialektos), See Josh, If I went to a service with my Thai friend Dim and my Kazakhstani friend Gau-har, and we each heard it in OUR native tongues - that would be indicative to me that something mystical was occuring.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I do have PROOF. Ever heard of a PENTECOSTAL CHURCH? If not, here's the deal. After Jesus Rose from the dead, He appeared to many over a time. And in this time, He explained that His now 11 disciples(judas betrayed Jesus, felt bad, hung himself) that they would RECEIVE POWER FROM ON HIGH. THE HOLY SPIRIT!! Well this is where the PENTECOSTAL stuff comes from. On the day of PENTECOST, the disciples were in a house, or large room when all of a sudden the HOLY SPIRIT came on them, and THEY SPOKE IN TOUNGES and had a Supernatural feel to them. GUESS WHAT?!??! THAT STILL GOES ON TODAY!! I PROMISE!!!! Go out on the internet, type in ASSEMBLY OF GOD, or Pentecostal Churches, or Pentecostal Churches in your area, or Baptized With the Holy Spirit, anything along that line. SEEE, FEEL, KNOW JESUS IS WHO HE SAYS HE IS!!!! There is MORE TO THIS WORLD than YOU SEE!!!!

Josh:

Thank you for revealing the depths of not only your personal psychoses, but your lack of comprehension of the meaning of words in the English language, as well. Writings about what some bunch of people say they felt 2,000 years ago is not proof of ...well... anything. It's 2,000 year old hear-say.

And, incidently, you may need to learn more Bible prior to telling Robert that his particular phrase "...but have not Charity" is not in there. Most translators follow the KJV precedence and interpret the original root word in that chip of scripture as "Love". The root word actually impies "love in action"...also known as "charity". It's in Romans or Corinthians, but I do not recall which precisely...I abandoned this vein of ill-spent passion too many years ago.

Dave