Religion, politics and the eye of the camel

elder999

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Over breakfast recently, my friend Rev. Phil and I were discussing financial abundance, Jesus, respectful use of resources, Krishna, and where to get the best red chile in Santa Fe. Actually, I was the only one talking about chile. My money is still on Josie’s red chile, by the way, but, I digress.

Rev. Phil quoted Jesus from the New Testament, when he said, “It’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter heaven.” (For someone who was raised Jewish, Rev. Phil knows a lot of Christian scripture.) I asked him if he knew the origin of the story, which set me off on one of my long, boring, lectures on exegesis. It’s really interesting, and since you’re reading this post, you must be interested in things spiritual, so I’ll share it with you. Some people teach how that in the ancient Middle East, cities were protected by walls. Depending on the size of the city, there would be two or more gates. These gates were quite substantial, and required several men to open and close. During the day, the gates would be open, and merchants from caravans, along with wandering tribesmen, would come into the city to trade, to buy, or to sell. While the gates were open, they were heavily guarded. Before the sun went down, the guards would announce that anyone without permission to stay the night in the city, must leave. If those without permission to stay didn’t leave, they would be imprisoned, perhaps even executed as a thief or spy. Built within the massive city gates, there was a smaller gate, perhaps four feet wide, by four feet tall. In the event that a trusted merchant arrived at the city after the gates were closed, if he were lucky, he’d be allowed to enter. It was dangerous outside the city walls. That was usually where thieves and murderers congregated, sort of like the US Congress today. But again, I digress.


When the trusted merchant received permission to come in after the city gates were closed, he had to unpack his camels, no small task. Then he had to lug all that merchandise through the small opening. Next, he had to get the camel down on its knees, and coax it through the small opening. No matter how many times a camel might have been through that ordeal, it invariably balked. It also hissed, spat and tried to bite anyone nearby. This small door, as you might have already guessed, was called “The Eye of the Needle”. The camel could get through, but it took a lot of pushing, shoving, crouching down, contortion, unpacking, repacking, and was generally a difficult task.

Now there was no such gate; I've been to Jerusalem, and I can tell you-what this was was a popular form of Hebrew hyperbole-a joke about attachment, and maybe an Aramaic pun. Therefore, when Jesus addressed this story to a crowd of Middle Easterners two thousand years ago, they knew exactly what he was saying. There’s nothing wrong with being financially wealthy. It is the preoccupation with acquiring and maintaining financial wealth that keeps one from exploring the things of spirit. Jesus was saying, in today’s language that rational materialism or political-social action can seem noble, but if they keep you from recognizing the wealth that comes from simple living and high thinking, you can’t progress in spirit. When you understand something of the roots of the Christian and Jewish scriptures, you can get a fuller appreciation of the spiritual treasures contained in them. So, it’s not impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom, it’s just very hard. Why? It is because his finances are usually uppermost in his mind, and he evaluates everything according to whether it will make him money, or not. He sees the things of spirit as profitless distractions.

There is another story of Jesus addressing the Jewish religious leaders. He knew that they were totally focused on following rules and regulations. He told them that thieves, prostitutes, and collaborators with the Roman occupiers would enter the promised Kingdom of God before they would. Can you imagine how angry that must have made them? Can you imagine how outraged they must’ve been? How might this story play out if Jesus were here in the USA today? Well, let’s exercise a bit of poetic license and see what might happen.

Once upon a time, Jesus requested the honor of addressing the Southern Baptist Convention, therefore Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and the officials of the Southern Baptist Convention did a little background check on this Jesus fellow. They discovered that his Mum got pregnant with him before she was married. They found that Jesus was homeless, couldn’t hold a steady job, had never filed a tax return, and had no record of military service to his country. Even more disturbing, they discovered that he was unmarried, and always in the company of other men. He knew a few women , but they seemed to be of questionable morals. His practice of traditional family values seemed to them to be, putting it kindly, suspect. They denied him permission to address the assembly of the Southern Baptist Convention. As Rev. Jerry Falwell, Rev. Pat Robertson and the other leaders were leaving the convention hall in Dallas, Jesus said to them, “You are a low down bunch of liars, cheats and tax-exempt hypocrites. I am telling you the absolute truth when I say that abortionists, atheists, gays and lesbians, drug dealers, liberals and Madonna will go to heaven before you will. You remind me of an expensive, deluxe, bronze casket at the graveside: Bright, polished and shiny outside, but inside dead and decaying. You are, in fact, offspring of the evil one, the father of lies, and there is no truth in you.”

Can you imagine how they would react? They would be furious. Soon, Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh would come to the defense of Rev. Jerry Falwell and his cohorts. President Bush would tell Jesus, “Look, you’re either with us or against us”. Jesus might answer him thusly, “George W., you have no power except the power entrusted to you by God. Remember, you will be judged by how you use that power”.

Jesus might try to address a Joint Session of Congress. Of course, they wouldn’t allow that, so he’d write his congressman. In his letter, Jesus would say; “You tried to kill me. You confiscated my money, and I couldn’t afford medicine. You lied to me, and you misused the trust placed in you. You enriched yourself at my expense”. The congressman’s assistant would write back; “Dear Mr. Jesus, When did we try to kill you, or take your possessions, or keep you from getting medicine?” Jesus would respond by saying; “When you bomb anyone, you are bombing me. Whenever you steal resources from others, you are robbing me. Whatever you do to the least important of your constituents, you do to me.” The current power structure would not be any more pleased with Jesus today than the power structure was two thousand years ago.

I’m hardly an expert on the teachings of Jesus. Despite my shortcomings, however, I do have enough sense to look around and see what a mess some of the churches have made of the message of love and forgiveness taught by Jesus. You don’t have to be a prophet to see where those who invoke Jesus are taking us. They talk a lot about Jesus, but their religion usually takes the form of a weapon used to attack people. Do you want to know what people believe about God? Watch how they live. Pay attention to how they treat others. The sad fact is that we are living in an age when religion has been degraded, and has become a tool of the evil one, the enemy. It’s interesting to note that the evil one always quoted scripture to Jesus when he tried to confuse and trick Jesus. Don’t be unduly impressed by those who have a scripture quote for everything. The evil one is a scripture scholar, and is far more active in politics and churches than in abortion clinics or same sex civil unions. Many of those in positions of political and religious leadership are not of the Light. They speak to you of God and the prophets, but their true master is the father of lies.I think we ignore this at our own peril
.


edited for punctuation, again
 

Makalakumu

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elder999 said:
I’m hardly an expert on the teachings of Jesus. Despite my shortcomings, however, I do have enough sense to look around and see what a mess some of the churches have made of the message of love and forgiveness taught by Jesus. You don’t have to be a prophet to see where those who invoke Jesus are taking us. They talk a lot about Jesus, but their religion usually takes the form of a weapon used to attack people. Do you want to know what people believe about God? Watch how they live. Pay attention to how they treat others. The sad fact is that we are living in an age when religion has been degraded, and has become a tool of the evil one, the enemy. It’s interesting to note that the evil one always quoted scripture to Jesus when he tried to confuse and trick Jesus. Don’t be unduly impressed by those who have a scripture quote for everything. The evil one is a scripture scholar, and is far more active in politics and churches than in abortion clinics or same sex civil unions. Many of those in positions of political and religious leadership are not of the Light. They speak to you of God and the prophets, but their true master is the father of lies.I think we ignore this at our own peril.

Amen-Ra!

I used to think that all modern religions were the product of Satan and that practicioners were nothing but his thralls, but I think that this is an over-simplistic way of viewing this. These churches are sources of power and certain men have figured out how to use this power. Are these men Godly or Satanic representatives? I cannot know the answer. However, I am fairly certain that they are men and I am also fairly certain that people do this sort of thing from time to time.

The problem with invoking God or Satan (the evil one) is that it only muddles the issue. Modern Religions were created to abuse people and all sorts of justifications for this kind of behavior are inherit in them. However, if we just recognize that this is something that humans do to each other and that we don't like it when its done to us, then the issue becomes much clearer.
 

mrhnau

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upnorthkyosa said:
Amen-Ra!

I used to think that all modern religions were the product of Satan and that practicioners were nothing but his thralls, but I think that this is an over-simplistic way of viewing this. These churches are sources of power and certain men have figured out how to use this power. Are these men Godly or Satanic representatives? I cannot know the answer. However, I am fairly certain that they are men and I am also fairly certain that people do this sort of thing from time to time.
I'll have to agree with most of this. I think abuse can happen, and frequently does with most religions.
Modern Religions were created to abuse people and all sorts of justifications for this kind of behavior are inherit in them. However, if we just recognize that this is something that humans do to each other and that we don't like it when its done to us, then the issue becomes much clearer.
Didn't Jesus say something like that?:rolleyes:

Religions created for abuse? I doubt it. I guess it depends on what you mean by "modern". I highly doubt that Jesus, Buddha, Mohhamed or anyone else were rubbing their hands together thinking "how can I abuse a large number of people and justify it". Perhaps over time this did happen, or the teachings possibly got distorted, but I highly doubt any religion was "created" with those types of intentions (with the exception of a few sickos out there).
 

mrhnau

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elder999 said:
The current power structure would not be any more pleased with Jesus today than the power structure was two thousand years ago.

I've often wondered what would occur if Jesus were to come today as he came 2k years ago. Its an interesting gedanken. Would we make the same mistakes? Label him a dangerous radical perhaps? Have the media distort his message? I tend to think so... I also wonder how comfortable he would be in alot of todays churches.
 

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Modern Religions were created to abuse people and all sorts of justifications for this kind of behavior are inherit in them.

Actually, the opposite. Most 'modern' religioius movements, and each religious movement has been 'modern' at some point, were created because of seeing the abuse, or the perceived heresy or apostasy...of what the established religion at the time has become, and an attempt to get back to what the 'religion' was really supposed to be about. Usually the initial vision is strong, sincere well meant, and often humble, but it rarely outlasts the visionary, and that's when the abuse comes in by those seeking to take advantage of the believers of vision, once the visionary has gone on.
 
OP
elder999

elder999

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upnorthkyosa said:
this. These churches are sources of power and certain men have figured out how to use this power.

This is true.

upnorthkyosa said:
Modern Religions were created to abuse people and all sorts of justifications for this kind of behavior are inherit in them.

This is half true: while modern religions, and even some older ones from their inception, like the Catholic Church, are largely about controlling people and the power you spoke of, there was necver any intent to abuse, per se, unless you count controlling people as abuse-though it often can become just that.

The "Dark One" stuff is called hyperbole-haven't you noticed?:wink1:
 

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mrhnau said:
I've often wondered what would occur if Jesus were to come today as he came 2k years ago. Its an interesting gedanken. Would we make the same mistakes? Label him a dangerous radical perhaps? Have the media distort his message? I tend to think so... I also wonder how comfortable he would be in alot of todays churches.

The ATF would probably frown on the whole water to wine thing. Hopefully it wouldn't be a capital offense.
 

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The ATF would probably frown on the whole water to wine thing. Hopefully it wouldn't be a capital offense.


He would just need to get a Liquor License...
 

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mrhnau said:
I'll have to agree with most of this. I think abuse can happen, and frequently does with most religions.

Didn't Jesus say something like that?:rolleyes:

Religions created for abuse? I doubt it. I guess it depends on what you mean by "modern". I highly doubt that Jesus, Buddha, Mohhamed or anyone else were rubbing their hands together thinking "how can I abuse a large number of people and justify it". Perhaps over time this did happen, or the teachings possibly got distorted, but I highly doubt any religion was "created" with those types of intentions (with the exception of a few sickos out there).

Agreed. Sincerely, but I think the point is aimed at the churches/temples that have arisen in the centuries/millennia since the deaths of Christ, Buddha etc that claim to be the word of said prophets have "perhaps" corrupted the original teachings to suit their own needs/requirements.
 

Makalakumu

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mrhnau said:
I've often wondered what would occur if Jesus were to come today as he came 2k years ago. Its an interesting gedanken. Would we make the same mistakes? Label him a dangerous radical perhaps? Have the media distort his message? I tend to think so... I also wonder how comfortable he would be in alot of todays churches.

Jesus would be a Liberal...:p

How is that for some hyperbole!
 

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Kensai said:
Agreed. Sincerely, but I think the point is aimed at the churches/temples that have arisen in the centuries/millennia since the deaths of Christ, Buddha etc that claim to be the word of said prophets have "perhaps" corrupted the original teachings to suit their own needs/requirements.

Perhaps a better phrase would havve been "modified to abuse" rather than "created to abuse". However, do you think the creation of a new demonination / sect constitutes a new religion? I don't think so, but I could see how some people might think that. If you believe that, then I will agree with the original statement.
 

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mrhnau said:
Perhaps a better phrase would havve been "modified to abuse" rather than "created to abuse". However, do you think the creation of a new demonination / sect constitutes a new religion? I don't think so, but I could see how some people might think that. If you believe that, then I will agree with the original statement.

Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, writings were specifically pulled together in order to create state religions. The purpose of these religions was to control people. This is good and bad...the classic double edged sword.
 

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Jesus would be a Liberal...:p

How is that for some hyperbole!


Hyperbole indeed, and I seriously hope you meant that in jest :)

Attempting to put Jesus into a category of today's politics is difficult at best, but it seems to me that he fits across a wide range. He as a radical against the status quo, but his challenge of change to the status quo was not forward to something new but backward to what he said they had forgotten. He cared about those in need and both personally tried to help them as well as criticized the 'state' for lack of help, a liberal approach. However he was pretty hardline in his views on morality and sin, definitely a conservative.

Determining that Jesus was liberal or conservatve, by our understanding of those words today, is like trying to determine if a rainbow is black or white.
 

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crushing said:
The ATF would probably frown on the whole water to wine thing. Hopefully it wouldn't be a capital offense.
He'd also have to make sure that he didn't do his walking on water schtick in a watershed area, and even then, he could possibly be ticketed for failing to wear an approved personal flotation device.
 

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mrhnau said:
Perhaps a better phrase would havve been "modified to abuse" rather than "created to abuse". However, do you think the creation of a new demonination / sect constitutes a new religion? I don't think so, but I could see how some people might think that. If you believe that, then I will agree with the original statement.

Yes it would have. No I don't. I agree with your point of view too. Anything for a fellow hockey fan. *whispers*(even if you are a Canes fan) ;)
 

heretic888

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mrhnau said:
Religions created for abuse? I doubt it. I guess it depends on what you mean by "modern". I highly doubt that Jesus, Buddha, Mohhamed or anyone else were rubbing their hands together thinking "how can I abuse a large number of people and justify it". Perhaps over time this did happen, or the teachings possibly got distorted, but I highly doubt any religion was "created" with those types of intentions (with the exception of a few sickos out there).

The problem here is that the development of religion in large part mirrors the development of life on our planet.

Things didn't "just happen". There was no "intelligent design" or "special creation". In both cases, they developed and evolved and adapted over a very, very, very long course of time.

New religions are never "founded" per se, although their adherents may wish to believe otherwise. Every "new" religion rests on the religious tradition and cultural milieu of its environment. It can be seen as part of an ongoing development of religious thought within that stream of the world.

This is why I generally have problems with apologists who claim things like "Christianity is X" or "Y is the inerrant Word of God". It assumes that the issue is closed, but the truth is that any religious or literary tradition evolved over several millenia and is still evolving today. Religions are not static, fixed entities. They have a life and movement of their own.

That's how I see it, anyway.

Laterz.
 

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