real or not

tshadowchaser

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Founding Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 29, 2001
Messages
13,460
Reaction score
733
Location
Athol, Ma. USA
Some one in my area claims to be teaching a sword art.
How can i find out if the art is real (meaning having been taught and passed down through the ages)?
Is there a central location ( or registry) which can be contacted to see if the art is legit and if the person actually holds rank.
 

Chris Parker

Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
6,259
Reaction score
1,104
Location
Melbourne, Australia
For a Japanese art, there are a few groups such as the Nippon Kobudo Kyokai, but first off I'd suggest simply putting down here what art they claim to teach - odds are if it's legit, someone here would have heard of it, and if it isn't, there's still a pretty good chance!

In terms of checking the teachers authenticity itself, though, that's typically done by contacting the individual Ryu themselves (or their representatives), who know who is and is not authorised to teach. For example, in the 80's there were some people in the UK claiming to teach Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, but they were basically just copying some books and a video, so although the art was authentic, the people weren't.
 

Langenschwert

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 12, 2007
Messages
1,023
Reaction score
353
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
Some one in my area claims to be teaching a sword art.
How can i find out if the art is real (meaning having been taught and passed down through the ages)?
Is there a central location ( or registry) which can be contacted to see if the art is legit and if the person actually holds rank.

It depends. If it's kendo or iaido there are federations that they would likely belong to. If not, it can be harder to tell. At koryu.com they have a listing of a lot of koryu arts.

Best regards,

-Mark
 

pgsmith

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
1,589
Reaction score
483
Location
Texas
How can i find out if the art is real (meaning having been taught and passed down through the ages)?
There is no central authority for koryu. The best way to determine if an art is actual or invented is to find someone that has a copy of Watatani and Yamada's Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. This is a Japanese book listing all of the various schools that the two authors could find anything about from their years of searching. It lists who the school heads were, and whether it is still in existence or not. Very interesting book, but extremly expensive and you have to read Japanese. :)

The bigger question, as has been pointed out, is whether the instructor actually knows the art in question and is allowed to teach it. The only way I know of to figure that out is to ask here and on other forums where koryu practitioners might be found. The koryu world outside of Japan is still pretty small, although it's getting bigger, so somebody should know the gentleman or someone within the particular koryu.
 

Ken Morgan

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Apr 9, 2009
Messages
2,985
Reaction score
131
Location
Guelph
The koryu world outside of Japan is still pretty small, although it's getting bigger, so somebody should know the gentleman or someone within the particular koryu.


Agreed.
In Canada we have only a few hundred people who seriously practice, in the states it may be a few thousand. Very small really.
Post the name of the school, the instructor and the website and one of us will be able to tell you something.
 
OP
tshadowchaser

tshadowchaser

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Founding Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 29, 2001
Messages
13,460
Reaction score
733
Location
Athol, Ma. USA
Let me try to get into his office so I can get the correct spelling on the cert. on his wall.

I am actualy asking on this forum to see if the style is legit for I am sure he has not studied other than by book or film.
I would rather not give his name at this time
 

pgsmith

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
1,589
Reaction score
483
Location
Texas
OK, I'll wait for you to post up the style name. I used to know a couple of people that had copies of the BRD, and I can see if I can get one of them to look it up for us. I hope you're mistaken about his background. Anyone that has a "sword school" but learned from books and video is a horrible accident waiting to happen.
 
OP
tshadowchaser

tshadowchaser

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Founding Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 29, 2001
Messages
13,460
Reaction score
733
Location
Athol, Ma. USA
Thanks to all
I started this thread to give information to anyone wanting to know how to check on anyone claiming to teach sword arts not just to check on one person ( even if it seems that way)
I do not want this to become a fraud bust thread so I will communicate with all by Pm when I find out the style/system he claims to be teaching and give you his name
Trouble is he know me well: he is a relation and I am sure I know his whole martial arts background but I want to know for certain and NO he will not tell me the truth in many instances nor iam am sure will he allow me in his office to see the certs.



I thank all of you have given some great advice and links thanks

I will post the name of the system when I find out
 

pgsmith

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
1,589
Reaction score
483
Location
Texas
I understand where you're coming from. If you have questions, feel free to PM.

Cheers,
 

Saitama Steve

Blue Belt
Joined
Jun 8, 2003
Messages
212
Reaction score
5
Location
Chelsea, London, UK/Souka-shi, Saitama Ken, JPN
The bigger question, as has been pointed out, is whether the instructor actually knows the art in question and is allowed to teach it. The only way I know of to figure that out is to ask here and on other forums where koryu practitioners might be found. The koryu world outside of Japan is still pretty small, although it's getting bigger, so somebody should know the gentleman or someone within the particular koryu.

All excellent points.

It's best to ask people who know.
 

joshbrown

Yellow Belt
Joined
Sep 2, 2011
Messages
25
Reaction score
1
Let me try to get into his office so I can get the correct spelling on the cert. on his wall.

I am actualy asking on this forum to see if the style is legit for I am sure he has not studied other than by book or film.
I would rather not give his name at this time

Why the cloak & dagger stuff? Can you not just ask him? Seems to me you could simply ask him who his teacher is/was, and query the lineage. These are things that a teacher should not keep secret. If he is legit, he would most likely speak of his teacher and lineage with great pride. If he simply learned from a book/video, his answer might not be as straight. Or he might just tell you that his learning comes from long distance study.
 

pgsmith

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
1,589
Reaction score
483
Location
Texas
Why the cloak & dagger stuff? Can you not just ask him? Seems to me you could simply ask him who his teacher is/was, and query the lineage. These are things that a teacher should not keep secret. If he is legit, he would most likely speak of his teacher and lineage with great pride. If he simply learned from a book/video, his answer might not be as straight. Or he might just tell you that his learning comes from long distance study.

While this is a very true statement, those with minimal real knowledge that still want to be thought of as "sensei" tend to get very defensive and rude if questioned on their knowledge and abilities. I've seen this many times over in the past. The good thing is that with the amount of information available today via the internet, it is much harder for these folks to hide the truth from someone that really wants to know it. Wasn't that long ago that it was very difficult to figure out if someone really knew what they were doing, or if they were faking it convincingly. I know a number of people that ended up being quite upset that they spent so much time and effort learning an invented art with no basis is real swordsmanship, no ties back to Japan, and no peer group to compare thoughts and ideas with.
 

joshbrown

Yellow Belt
Joined
Sep 2, 2011
Messages
25
Reaction score
1
Yeah, so, kinda my point is that if he gets "rude and defensive," that should be enough of a red flag and probably answers the question.

It's not wrong to ask your teacher who his/her teacher is/was. Students should never feel awkward asking such a question.
 

pgsmith

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
1,589
Reaction score
483
Location
Texas
It's not wrong to ask your teacher who his/her teacher is/was. Students should never feel awkward asking such a question.
That's absolutely correct, but he never said that this was his own teacher. In fact, from the tenor of his posts, I would guess that this is NOT his instructor. Why does it matter if the OP prefers to not confront the fellow about his lineage?
 

Daniel Sullivan

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
May 27, 2008
Messages
6,472
Reaction score
271
Location
Olney, Maryland
Some one in my area claims to be teaching a sword art.
How can i find out if the art is real (meaning having been taught and passed down through the ages)?
Is there a central location ( or registry) which can be contacted to see if the art is legit and if the person actually holds rank.
One question that I have is, what is he claiming to teach? Is he just teaching a 'sword class?' Or is he claiming to be teaching a specific ryu?

If he's just teaching 'stuff' he's learned, or if he's self taught, then it is unlikely that he has any connection to anything passed down through the ages.

Is he putting his shingle up saying, come one come all? If so, then he should be prepared to field any questions that you might have as a perspective student.
 
OP
tshadowchaser

tshadowchaser

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Founding Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 29, 2001
Messages
13,460
Reaction score
733
Location
Athol, Ma. USA
I know this is an old thread but I am able to say a few things now I did not want to say earlier.
First the person I was asking about is now dead so I can no longer ask him questions. At the time of the OP I had not spoken to the person in a few years. He was a major reason for my leaving my former style/school because of some of the crap he told the new GM and I did not want to get into the politics involved.
2nd The person who now heads that school still has not allowed me into the office to view the certs on the wall but I have been told they are all in English so I do not know if this is a red flag or not.

I do have a date set to visit his wife and talk about family stuff so I may be able to ask her. AS I said he was a relative.

As to why all the cloak and dagger stuff. 1st we do not fraud bust here. 2nd naming someone with what may be seen as an allegation of being a fraud might end up in court if found that the person was not a fraud.
He was teaching this sword art as part of his other martial art instruction but was claiming it was a separate art he had learned
----------------------------
I have no idea why I once again came across this thread but there must be a reason so to those that said I could contact them thank you and I may do so in a bout 2 weeks after I talk with the mans wife
 

Latest Discussions

Top