Ranking Martial Arts for Self Defensw

[Holmejr]

Well, he certainly doesn’t think highly of the FMA’s. Can’t blame him really, in the early days it was basically a demo art. Then folks taught the art based on the demos they attended. I visited a couple schools that I didn’t care for before finding my current school. Still, in the couple altercations that I have had, it wasn’t just one art that saved my butt, but a synthesis of all that I’ve learned.

Eskrido de Alcuizar
Buena Park, CA

 

[dunc]

An even smaller minority is no gi BJJ(whether they compete or not), and look at the differences there. A belt ranking in jacketed wrestling like judo and BJJ isn't the same as someone with a lot of no gi experience. That's a whole other level.

Two people with the same colored belt, but one has more no gi exposure, they're gonna be better prepared to defend themselves.

In my experience most people train both gi and no gi
But I'm not sure why you think someone who trains in the gi only is less well equipped to defend themselves (assuming we live in countries where people often wear clothes)

 

[Oily Dragon]

In my experience most people train both gi and no gi
But I'm not sure why you think someone who trains in the gi only is less well equipped to defend themselves (assuming we live in countries where people often wear clothes)

Because a heavy gi is not really like modern clothing.

 

[drop bear]

The point is that German Longsword doesn't need to "evolve" just because some 27-year-old kid thinks it's "stagnant." It doesn't need to.

People spar with German Longsword though.

So theoretically it could be evolving as you get whatever superstars coming up through the ranks.

 

[dunc]

Because a heavy gi is not really like modern clothing.

I'd say it depends on the weather, but I'm British so it's crap most of the year
Gi grappling transfers really well to coats, hoodies and non-skinny jeans
And if you have no experience of getting your clothing grabbed you're pretty screwed vs someone with strong grips (which is a very natural thing for even untrained people to do)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

People spar with German Longsword though.

So theoretically it could be evolving as you get whatever superstars coming up through the ranks.

It is evolving, but not exclusively via emulating whoever wins tournaments.

There's an ongoing process where practitioners study the historic texts, try to interpret them, then find interpretations and training methods which both fit the historical documentation but also work under stress testing. Then the process gets iterated as we learn more from historical research and competition.

There's also an ongoing process of experimenting with different rulesets to better emulate either historical competition rulesets (as much as that can be done safely) or to encourage behaviors which you would want to have ingrained if your life was actually on the line.

For example, one of the big problems with sword sparring is the tendency for double-kills where both fighters land a shot at once or alternately for one fighter to land a blow first, but leave themself open for an afterblow (since in real life most blows wouldn't cause instant death). I'm going to a tournament next week which has rules designed to encourage more appropriate technique for a situation where your life is on the line. You get extra points for landing a shot from a position where you are simultaneously controlling your opponent's blade so he can't hit you. You lose points if your opponent can hit you with an afterblow. And if you get 3 double-kills in a single match, then both competitors lose. I think it's a pretty good ruleset, but it's just one of the options that people are experimenting with.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It is evolving, but not exclusively via emulating whoever wins tournaments.

There's an ongoing process where practitioners study the historic texts, try to interpret them, then find interpretations and training methods which both fit the historical documentation but also work under stress testing. Then the process gets iterated as we learn more from historical research and competition.

There's also an ongoing process of experimenting with different rulesets to better emulate either historical competition rulesets (as much as that can be done safely) or to encourage behaviors which you would want to have ingrained if your life was actually on the line.

For example, one of the big problems with sword sparring is the tendency for double-kills where both fighters land a shot at once or alternately for one fighter to land a blow first, but leave themself open for an afterblow (since in real life most blows wouldn't cause instant death). I'm going to a tournament next week which has rules designed to encourage more appropriate technique for a situation where your life is on the line. You get extra points for landing a shot from a position where you are simultaneously controlling your opponent's blade so he can't hit you. You lose points if your opponent can hit you with an afterblow. And if you get 3 double-kills in a single match, then both competitors lose. I think it's a pretty good ruleset, but it's just one of the options that people are experimenting with.

Sounds like a good time. Another fun option is a cumulative competition. Wounds carry over from one round to the next.

 

[drop bear]

I'd say it depends on the weather, but I'm British so it's crap most of the year
Gi grappling transfers really well to coats, hoodies and non-skinny jeans
And if you have no experience of getting your clothing grabbed you're pretty screwed vs someone with strong grips (which is a very natural thing for even untrained people to do)

Theoretically everyone is wearing no gi though. Even if they have a gi their neck doesn't disappear so you have one method for both circumstances.

But I do both and also advocate that you can do multiple styles without too much drama.

 

[drop bear]

Even wrestling isn't always the same.

Yeah. It wasn't completely accurate. But is has some consistency for a thousands of years old activity.

 

[drop bear]

It is evolving, but not exclusively via emulating whoever wins tournaments.

There's an ongoing process where practitioners study the historic texts, try to interpret them, then find interpretations and training methods which both fit the historical documentation but also work under stress testing. Then the process gets iterated as we learn more from historical research and competition.

There's also an ongoing process of experimenting with different rulesets to better emulate either historical competition rulesets (as much as that can be done safely) or to encourage behaviors which you would want to have ingrained if your life was actually on the line.

For example, one of the big problems with sword sparring is the tendency for double-kills where both fighters land a shot at once or alternately for one fighter to land a blow first, but leave themself open for an afterblow (since in real life most blows wouldn't cause instant death). I'm going to a tournament next week which has rules designed to encourage more appropriate technique for a situation where your life is on the line. You get extra points for landing a shot from a position where you are simultaneously controlling your opponent's blade so he can't hit you. You lose points if your opponent can hit you with an afterblow. And if you get 3 double-kills in a single match, then both competitors lose. I think it's a pretty good ruleset, but it's just one of the options that people are experimenting with.

Yeah. But let's say we go back to the lachlan guiles's leg lock idea.

If you are training live. And there are people who are good.

Then they are going to be the ones developing the activity.

It doesn't have to evolve but people may find themselves dominated by people who do evolve.

 

[Buka]

Clackledockling is a strong contender, though.

View attachment 28475

How did I ever forget Clackledockling!

I hope my Union card isn't revoked for improper Clackledocklerationary omissions.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

An even smaller minority is no gi BJJ(whether they compete or not), and look at the differences there. A belt ranking in jacketed wrestling like judo and BJJ isn't the same as someone with a lot of no gi experience. That's a whole other level.

Two people with the same colored belt, but one has more no gi exposure, they're gonna be better prepared to defend themselves.

Sounds like a good time. Another fun option is a cumulative competition. Wounds carry over from one round to the next.

What is your favorite restaurant in Denver?

 

[Dirty Dog]

What is your favorite restaurant in Denver?

Don't have one. We're a bit over two hours from Denver, so it's not someplace we just go for dinner. If we're in Denver for dinner, it's usually because we've got a really early flight in the morning. And we're going to eat take out or door dash or something like that.

 

[hoshin1600]

Lethwei is basically the same as other Asian kickboxing arts (Muay Thai, San Shou), but with headbutting actually allowed and encouraged.

There's a long history of debate in the MMA scene about the banning of headbutting, because it's extremely effective (and bloody) and Lethwei matches are one of the only places in the overground to actually see it (other than pro wrestling).

If I'm not mistaken, even Vale Tudo doesn't allow headbutts.

I think head butts are the best.....for an evolving case of CTE. Some make the case that brain trauma causes a sense of fearlessness and risk taking. I think it might be difficult to assess your own mortality risk, when you only have a fraction of your neurons working. Lead paint as a child also has this tendency. Since I discovered that a lack of cognitive ability causes people a willingness to fight anyone and everyone without a thought to consequence, I've been handing out lead paint chips to all new students free with their first uniform.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sounds like a good time. Another fun option is a cumulative competition. Wounds carry over from one round to the next.

There's actually a bit of that too. The "3 doubles and both fighters lose" rule applies during the pools matches. Once you get to the elimination rounds then one fighter has to progress, so if they had 3 doubles then the winner goes into the next round with 2 points already scored against them.

 

[hoshin1600]

Ranking arts for "self defense" is really nothing more than pointing out your own bias and preconceived notions.
As was already pointed out, self defense is a meaningless word.
To put any kind of meaning on a list, that list would have to be accompanied by a scenario to explain what self defense is to the author.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yeah. But let's say we go back to the lachlan guiles's leg lock idea.

If you are training live. And there are people who are good.

Then they are going to be the ones developing the activity.

It doesn't have to evolve but people may find themselves dominated by people who do evolve.

Absolutely, but the additional considerations have to do with the nature of the art we are practicing.

We want to develop the skills used by historical sword fighters. But we can't practically/legally/ethically fight each other for real with real swords. We can only practice a relatively safe approximation in the hopes that it is close enough so that the skills would carry over in the event that we were magically transported back into the past.

That's where these other aspects of the art's development come into play. We don't want to end up just getting better and better at competing in a sport which is completely disconnected from the reality of actual historical combat. So we have these additional reality checks (not replacing competition performance, but supplementing them):

Did the people who actually fought with swords for real ever use a particular technique or tactic? If not, there's likely some good reason. Did they only use that technique or tactic in a particular situation or culture or time period? Then there's probably a reason for that too, which we might not figure out just from our tournament results.

Can we actually cut solid objects effectively using the same techniques and body mechanics that we use in sparring? This can take a lot of practice to get good at and it can be difficult to reliably judge in a tournament setting.

Are the sparring rules that we use to approximate actual fighting the best rules we can use for that purpose? It's not hard to end up with a situation where someone gets really good at winning tournaments with tactics which would likely get them killed in a real sword fight*. So we research and experiment in order to get the best approximation(s) we can for developing a skill that we will probably, hopefully never have a chance to test in real life.

*(Alternately, there were also historical fencing competitions which were conducted with non-lethal intent. So another way to run tournaments is to research how those were carried out and match them as closely as we can within the parameters of modern safety concerns.)

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Don't have one. We're a bit over two hours from Denver, so it's not someplace we just go for dinner. If we're in Denver for dinner, it's usually because we've got a really early flight in the morning. And we're going to eat take out or door dash or something like that.

Ok I have to go there with my wife for her yoga teachers conference and a Pilates teacher training in August. Just thought you might have suggestions. Thanks. I hear Izakaya is good.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think head butts are the best.....for an evolving case of CTE. Some make the case that brain trauma causes a sense of fearlessness and risk taking. I think it might be difficult to assess your own mortality risk, when you only have your neurons working. Lead paint as a child also has this tendency. Since I discovered that a lack of cognitive ability causes people a willingness to fight anyone and everyone without a thought to consequence, I've been handing out lead paint chips to all new students free with their first uniform.

🤣

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ok I have to go there with my wife for her yoga teachers conference and a Pilates teacher training in August. Just thought you might have suggestions. Thanks. I hear Izakaya is good.

If it's open, there's a place called Casa Bonita that's a theme park restaurant. They have cliff divers and that sort of thing to go with your meal.
If you want to do some touristy things while you're there, drive out to Estes Park, home of the Stanley Hotel, of The Shining fame. It's about 90 minutes from Denver. We stay at the Appenzell Inn when we're in the area. The Stanley has ghost tours and stuff if you're into that sort of thing. Drive/hike/horseback ride through Rocky Mountain National Park. It's gorgeous. And there's a place called Hunters Chop House minutes from the Inn that serves some of the best Bison I've ever had. They serve bison, elk, boar, pheasant, as well as more plebeian fare, like beef.