Questions Concerning Two-Sworded approach

[word_surgeon]

Hello, all. I am new here at the site, so please try to be patient if I lack some common courtesies.

I was simply wondering if anyone has had any extensive experience or hearsay advice for the dual-sword approach. I partake in sparring with the use of shinai from time to time and have recently begun to experiment with a double sword approach. I've been utilizing, for the most part, a stance very much like that you often see Musashi depicted in, however, I have been using two shinai of equal measure in most cases, usually 38's (I just ordered some 37's though, so I'll let you know how those turn out when I get the chance). The weight isn't really an issue, I can use the momentum of the weapon itself well enough to avoid strain on my wrists, but I have some trouble with tighter, finessed movements, due to the unruly length of my shinai and the more chokuto balancing.

Now, my primary question is more or less this: Should a dual-sword style base its strengths in a well-timed, decisive chokuto approach in which only one or neither sword ever makes contact with the opponents' before finishing them, OR do you find more strength in a dobari-based two sword technique, that would take advantage of extra opportunities for parries and counters and disarming?

I think what I've been adapting now is deifinitely more chokuto-driven in nature, but if I borrowed my girlfriend's shorter 32 and 36, or even ordered dual 34, I could try out dobari.

Thoughts?

Oh, and if you want some kind of example of what my present experimentation is looking like, you can come idea from a few videos up here: youtube.com/Danpaco

I'm the bald one (shame, since I'm only eighteen). xP

 

[Monadnock]

I dunno man. Shinai aren't swords for one. Second, I didn't see your Musashi stance and chances are whatever you saw depicted was an artist's interpretation. Lastly, it looked like a game of tag, not a martial art. Wish I could help, but my best advice would be to find a teacher. Post your location and maybe someone can point you to a good school, I mean dojo, in your area.

 

[word_surgeon]

Obviously shinai aren't swords. I use the terms interchangeably for ease and to spare redundancy. And EVERY Musashi stance is, at best, an artist interpretation, because his technique was never fully passed on to anyone, so use an open mind. Whether the artist is a martial artist or an illustrator, there is no such thing, that anyone today can claim with certainty, that is the TRUE 'Musashi stance'. I was simply trying to make it easier to envision. That aside, what is your idea of a martial art? A dreadfully formal practice in bows and points and referees lining some mat inside an air-conditioned classroom? We fight until we tire, so we don't become accustomed to affording one another breaks we would never receive in a truly dangerous situation, we don't stop to make calls because we're not so stupid that we can't tell when a lethal strike has landed, and we throw the unnecessary formality out the window because quite frankly, we don't have the time and it serves no realistic purpose. I was asking for advice, concepts, a theory, something other than conceit.

 

[word_surgeon]

And just a thought I'll add before you all pounce on the ripe newb that I seem to be with your glorious ideas of martial honor and tradition: Is there such a thing as a martial arts teacher? Are we not all just students of varying capability? No single person knows it all. Even Musashi was not confident enough to proclaim that.

The most we can ever become are excellent students. Our bodies, the world around us, and the times are always changing. They are our best teachers, no? How do you think the first ryu was ever formed? Some dumb punk perhaps not too much better than myself spent enough time swinging a stick around and seeing what worked best for hitting people. That's really all any precious ryu amounts to, in lamence terms. Some dead guy's old method for hitting people with a stick. And just because it worked wonderfully for him doesn't mean it is the best approach for everyone. Your body always knows best. I believe if someone can listen to what their body tries to tell them and analyzes the results of every test carefully, they can teach themselves the technique that best suites them.

ALL of that said, if we ARE just all students, I figure, why not try to help one another? Friendly class participation is infinitely more interesting and enriching than strict competition. And I understand the strength of an old, structured martial art in that, it was clearly successful for many people if it survived so long. I acknowledge my own bit of hypocrisy here. But what I detest is not strucutred martials arts but the attitudes of their practitioners. Any time I've ever asked for advice in any forum or even face-to-face with a practitioner, the response is always the same; "Find a teacher", "Learn a REAL martial art". As if there were only one way! Pff. It's laughable, but for some odd reason it drives me more to anger. Perhaps a weakness of my spirit.

Any meditation advice as well?

 

[Langenschwert]

Now, my primary question is more or less this: Should a dual-sword style base its strengths in a well-timed, decisive chokuto approach in which only one or neither sword ever makes contact with the opponents' before finishing them, OR do you find more strength in a dobari-based two sword technique, that would take advantage of extra opportunities for parries and counters and disarming?

It should be based on what actually works. If a guy has one sword and you have two, then the simultaneous parry w/ counter works nicely. That being said, there's a reason why historically speaking, two-sword styles are somewhat rare... a sword and shield or sword and dagger combo is usually much more effective. A second sword leaves you no opportunity to cover your dominant hand's wrist from sniping attacks the way a buckler does, and makes close-in work hard compared to sword and dagger combo.

I'm not saying it can't be done... however, make sure that you are REALLY solid fighting with a single sword in either hand, but not both together first. That way your learning curve will be faster.

Good luck.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[nitflegal]

Some things to keep in mind based on my not enormously extensive training in two-katana styles.

First, Shinai are not only not swords, which we know, they don't handle like swords either. Well made bokken or real katana (even blunted ones) are going to dramatically change your movements and cutting geometry. If you're really looking at this like swordsmanship, you've got two primary things to concern yourself with; proper manipulation of the swords so that they don't get in your way and leave you open and actually cutting with the darned things.

For the first, it takes an awful lot of work to get to the point where two-sword is useful and not artiface. I'll be honest, I worked on it and got good enough not to embarrass myself but I never reached the level where I would try it for real (heaven forbid). Until you really break through all that you're doing is limiting your available cuts as the other sword is blocking quadrants. I well remember being shown up beautifully when I was doing the pretty fan swirls and the other guy just poked his bokken into the "fan", which completely screwed me up and made me hugely vulnerable as my arms deflected off the line of attack.

Beyond that, you have to be able to cut with each strike and cutting one-handed is tough, especially when moving the body. You don't realize how much the wrists twisting against each other lines up the blade-edge until you can't do it! The way I drilled was to practice two-handed 8-cuts with a katana until it was right. Then practice eight-cut with one sword and only one hand, switching hands to work both sides. When it felt right and I wasn't whacking my legs, start with a katana (slowly). Then practice 8-cuts with two bokken, either cutting right after each other or alternating cuts. Then start with katana, slowly. Then practice doing it with test-cutting. Then try doing 8-cuts while moving with two bokken, and so on. Without a very good teacher my humble opinion is that shinai work becomes in essence stick-fighting and if that's what it becomes don't risk an expensive katana snapping from a poor stroke when oak dowel from the hardware store is so much cheaper.

I'll be honest, sword training on your own is a recipe for injury and terrible body-mechanics. I was pretty decent at kenjustu and I noticed that even with practicing on my own after I moved I got less precise (read, sloppier)the longer I was away from a good teacher. I've seen people who have trained without a teacher and they have an awful lot of unlearing to do. By the way, momentum and katana are a bad combination as the blade tends to twist and you lose control of the movement. If momentum is carrying you through your techniques you need to slow down the speed and let your muscles develop. Get a suburi and pracice, do some side to side wrist rolls and work up to 500+ cuts with the suburi. I've made the mistake of trying to run before I was good at crawling and thank God I've had patient teachers who worked with me to repair the damage to my technique (and in a couple of spots, my body).

Matt

 

[nitflegal]

It should be based on what actually works. If a guy has one sword and you have two, then the simultaneous parry w/ counter works nicely. That being said, there's a reason why historically speaking, two-sword styles are somewhat rare... a sword and shield or sword and dagger combo is usually much more effective. A second sword leaves you no opportunity to cover your dominant hand's wrist from sniping attacks the way a buckler does, and makes close-in work hard compared to sword and dagger combo.

I'm not saying it can't be done... however, make sure that you are REALLY solid fighting with a single sword in either hand, but not both together first. That way your learning curve will be faster.

Good luck.

Best regards,

-Mark

It's funny you should mention that. In both kenjutsu and German longsword (at least the stuff I've studied) there does seem to be a lot more emphasis on dagger/tanto as the second weapon which is a great deflector and close-in weapon. It's funny that there seems to be an almost identical posture from ochs as well as doko no kamae that utilize this.

Matt

 

[Monadnock]

Obviously shinai aren't swords. I use the terms interchangeably for ease and to spare redundancy.

Well, you asked the question in a JMA forum, so you got some specifics in return.

And EVERY Musashi stance is, at best, an artist interpretation, because his technique was never fully passed on to anyone, so use an open mind. Whether the artist is a martial artist or an illustrator, there is no such thing, that anyone today can claim with certainty, that is the TRUE 'Musashi stance'. I was simply trying to make it easier to envision.

Not quite true. There are Nito Ichi ryu dojo.

That aside, what is your idea of a martial art? A dreadfully formal practice in bows and points and referees lining some mat inside an air-conditioned classroom? We fight until we tire, so we don't become accustomed to affording one another breaks we would never receive in a truly dangerous situation, we don't stop to make calls because we're not so stupid that we can't tell when a lethal strike has landed, and we throw the unnecessary formality out the window because quite frankly, we don't have the time and it serves no realistic purpose.

Well, I'll ignore the attempt at an insult, and just say that without formality, you have nothing. Formality can be as simple as saying you're going to start class at a certain time. I assume you do that don't you? So you see, you have to have it in order to even begin training - before you even step on the mat, or park lawn.

I was asking for advice, concepts, a theory, something other than conceit.

No conceit here. Just hard truths. What I saw in 2 of the videos before I gave up looked like sport and nothing of a JMA I have ever witnessed, and frankly, when I see that I don't think it has any business being associated with the JMA. Hence my reason for posting, and suggesting finding a reputable school/dojo.

Always here to help,

 

[Ninjamom]

WS, I looked at the sparring videos you posted to Youtube and have a safety concern.

As mentioned by others, shinai are not swords, so the mechanics for wielding them and the striking techniques that work with them are different than what would work for 'real' swords. Shinai do, however, provide a significant risk for injury in unpadded use. May I please humbly suggest you consider investing in these, as they address both concerns?

This Hong Kong-based company specializes in producing authentically weighted and balanced sparring weapons that mirror the performance characteristics of real weapons (without the cutting/maiming/killing part ). They allow an excellent balance of realism, affordability, and safety (there will always be tradeoffs between these). You will be able to spar with a good degree of safety while having a more authentic feel to your techniques. If a teacher is unavailable, and your primary mode of self-instruction is 'trial and error', I think you will find these might help, without the danger of putting out an eye.

Also, if your primary interest is in sparring against other weapons enthusiasts, you might try to contact The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts (ARMA), a group that specializes in recreating historically-accurate weapons, tactics, and battle scenarios. They offer a full curriculum, certification, workshops, AND their website even has detailed instructions on how to make safe-yet-realistic sparring weapons.

In either case, you will find changes in your tactics, distance, and timing all needed, as soon as you move to a sparring implement closer in weight to actual swords (as opposed to the lighter shinai).

 

[arnisador]

With two swords it's harder to get your body weight into a cut and deliver a fight-ending blow. The comments about a shiled are on-target too.

 

[nitflegal]

Also, if your primary interest is in sparring against other weapons enthusiasts, you might try to contact The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts (ARMA), a group that specializes in recreating historically-accurate weapons, tactics, and battle scenarios. They offer a full curriculum, certification, workshops, AND their website even has detailed instructions on how to make safe-yet-realistic sparring weapons.

In either case, you will find changes in your tactics, distance, and timing all needed, as soon as you move to a sparring implement closer in weight to actual swords (as opposed to the lighter shinai).

One thing to note is that ARMA, HACA, and such use wasters and blunted swords for darned near everything but sparring. Even then, a lot of the push and reaction drills have us using wasters. Heck, even most sparring uses wood and padded gloves, chest protector, and mask. The padded stuff is used for some actual contact sparring that is a small part of the endless practice of technique with wood and steel. I admit I'm showing my biases but while shinai and padded sparring equipment are useful for practicing the rhythm of the fight and timing during sparring they are poor choices for technique development. Note how much effort the Western sword types have put into the carbon-composite training swords with real shape and weight. The ones you've cited are about as good as they get and offer the best compromise between weight/balance and not crippling your sparring partner. However, just because they're as good as they get doesn't mean that they're actually good. IMHO, the feedback from metal or at least wood is just flat out better for developing your techniques and body mechanics. If someone is doing solo training a bokken or blunted katana are just much better choices.

My $0.02 at least.

Matt

 

[word_surgeon]

Thank you all for getting back to me so quickly.

Since you have brought it up, I will actually mention that I have considered a sword and dagger combination many times, and actually even using some mismatched sports equipment to create some reminiscence of a Roman gladius (sp?) approach, but as I've never played any sports so I don't have such padding, and I've never seen a shinai short enough to substitute for a dagger except the ones made for one-handed suburi, but those are usually even more, or at least as expensive as a full length 39 (at the quality level I'm purchasing). I realize this could easily be solved if I sparred with bokken (bokuto); I already have two oak daisho, but no willing partners. I don't really resent the reluctance of my friends because the danger is increased significantly when moving to solid wood. I'm also the only one accustomed to sparring or training with bokuto previously (even though it was, once again, self-directed--and a couple of them are familiar with bo), so once they realize the major differences in mechanics they become more opposed, even to light sparring.

And I would love to train solo with bokuto or blunted katana, but I simply have no time. I slip in the sparring I do with my friends on the one day off a week I MIGHT be lucky enough to get. I could skip sleep to train late into the night, but in the end it would just defeat the entire purpose, because my exhaustion would not only destroy any form or physique, but my job performance would suffer tremendously.

And I actually have already taken notice from a few bouts I shared with some guy I randomly met one day who practiced some European longsword and dirk style that fighting with two full length bokken is far different and ridiculously more difficult than two shinai. I honestly admit I only held my own against the gentleman because I had some more stamina and was a bit quicker, as he was slightly heavyset.

I would like to say that I don't believe structured classes are useless, I just feel they are usually extremely overpriced, and that they leave much to be desired. I've already sparred four kendo practitioners, one iaido, and three aikido, and was able to win through a majority of matches. This is no pride on my part--more of a sadness that the training they received and put so much faith in amounted to somewhat less than they needed. I will say that several of that cluster were significantly either faster, stronger, more accurate, focused, or generally skilled than I was (I say WAS because I actually used to be far more fit and practiced FARRR more often than I do now--at least three hours a day, at least five days a week, with bokken, used to be my routine), yet, when the fighting became too close, it usually only took some manipulation of the environment to turn things around, or the use of movements I knew were very foreign to their training style. Oh, and I've become personally very opposed to kendo, because in my experience, once the students are out of their armor, they all seem to FORGET that they are out of their armor, and rush in with the dreadful stereotype of striking as fast as possible with NO regards for self defense. I've always felt that a technique is no good if it can only guarantee a mutual slaying.

Anyway, this is where most of my distrust with "teachers" of martial arts sprouts from, though I'm sure that it doesn't help that I live in Weston, Florida, and anything nearby is more or less a McDojo.

Sorry for the drudgingly long reply, there were just so many good points made. I really do appreciate everything, even your words, Monadnock (though I have one picky notation: While there are Nito Ichi ryu dojo about, some have slightly conflicting views of the style, and in any case, Musashi wrote just several months before his death that he did not feel a single one of his students had mastered the style of his sword, and the true techniques would die with him. Just my little petpeeve, because I must embarassingly admit that I have a slight obsession with his writings and history, etc.).

Oh, and please forgive my (terrible) habit of placing a good half (or more) of my statements in parenthesis!

And my inability to express myself fluently. I know I must sound, in turns, arrogant, coy, genuine, and ignorant.

 

[jks9199]

Regarding learning without a teacher...

It's possible. For a rare few people. The rest will flail around with whatever they choose to train with ineffectually. All of them will spend a lot of time reinventing the wheel needlessly. And all of them will develop bad habits because the simple truth is that only true way to develop skills in the martial sciences without someone on the outside to review and correct you is trial and error. A thousand monkeys with typewriters may indeed recreate the works of Shakespeare... but they're gonna produce a whole lot more dreck in the process. Trial and error will produce some good techniques and tricks; it'll produce even more things that worked in one set of circumstances and won't work in others.

Regarding formal classes...

I'm pretty confident that very few folks here will tell you that FORMAL instruction consisting of lining up, bowing, rituals, etc. are essential to learning functional skills. (Learning cultural martial arts is a completely different issue.) Nearly all of us will tell you that you need INSTRUCTION: you need guidance intended to develop and improve your skills. See above.

Finally, regarding writing -- a subject near & dear to me...

Invest less than $10 in a copy of Strunk & White's The Elements of Style. If you read and apply it, your writing will become more effective, and will take less effort. Learning to write well and effectively is increasingly vital to success in the workplace; it's well worth the effort.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

And just a thought I'll add before you all pounce on the ripe newb that I seem to be with your glorious ideas of martial honor and tradition: Is there such a thing as a martial arts teacher?

Just a quick one to that short comment mate, I have a teacher, he teaches me stuff. Therefor he is a teacher. It doesn't exclude him being a student, but he is a student to his art, not anyone else (that is unless he sees something so epicawesomecool that we all join someone elses dojo....). In relation to me he is the teacher and I am the student. The same way I am a teacher to my students.

In regards to dual shinai fighting, I tried that once, then I got frustrated with the impossibility of effect and went to using a couple of bokken instead. If you want a good challenge for training your form I suggest just using one suburi bokken in one hand. To be honest though, swords are unwieldy in one hand unless they're relatively small (about wakizashi size). Especially, I should point out those made of steel. I'm pretty sure (though not certain) that Musashi only ever used steel in a two sword approach once, then reverted to wood because it was faster. If you actually look at the many different varieties of replica musashi bokken you can buy they are in fact incredibly small and very easy to use.
To be honest I would just stick to a two handed approach and become very proficient with that. Then move to a single handed approach with one sword (my personal favourite, noone ever expects a punch to the face in a weapon sparring match), then a two sword approach if you feel it necessary.
I have to say, Musashi's work is something of a big interest to myself also and I spent a lot of time working on it. And, although he is well known for his work in swordship, his key point was to win be whatever means necessary. Not many folks realise he actually won his first duel using a stick and actually beat his oppnent over the head in a most brutal and very animalistic manner (according to survivng written sources). He placed great emphasis on winning anywhere at anytime with anything, not just being very good with a sword.

Last thing, keep looking for a dojo, it took me years to find what I'm looking for and even then I realised I'd only just started out. Finding the right place isn't the beginning of a straight road, it's like being caught by a wind that'll take you to all the right places given time.

 

[word_surgeon]

Thank you for the advice, jks and Hyper. I think I'm going to revert back to my two-handed style again until I can become AT LEAST as adequate as I used to be, and then try one-handed, and EVENTUALLY tackle dual-swords. The feel of one sword in each hand really does feel so balanced and natural to me, but my movements are not practiced enough, and are far too limited. I realize what basics must be covered first now.

And once again, I wouldn't be entirely opposed to dojo training, but there are three major issues for me: time, cost, and most important, quality. I live in major suburbia. There is nothing nearby but kendo classes, which I fancy none.

And I know Musashi fought dirty when necessary, that's how I win half of my matches as well. I love to make use of my environment, or feign strikes to raise opponent's guards in the wrong direction, or kick water from a puddle up into their eyes, etc. I don't afford anyone any "honors" when I spar.

Of course, I've become a bit goofy about it lately. The videos I have up on youtube are, for the most part, ridiculous. Only two or three of them show me legitimately sparring. I'm really unaccustomed to being filmed while I fight, and I've also been treating my get-togethers more like friendly events than serious matches because of all of the work stress and limited time to see my friends. But I'll try to get myself back into focus soon enough.

 

[tahuti]

Just for inspiration, since it is western swordfighting, Case of Rapiers
http://storm.alert.sk/swordsmanship/hutton/case.html
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/XIVCase.htm

 

[TheFiveRings]

From watching the video I have a few constructive comments.

My main criticism is the footwork and the haste. Very seldom did I see your opponent attack you first. Give the opponent some incentive to attack you, perhaps lower you swords or feint a stumble; he's not going to attack with a sword in his face and another sword behind it. There was excessive "block-and-strike" action where the same movement was used repeatedly. The further your sword gets from your body the less power and control you have. Use your feet to maneuver more instead of trying to reach the opponent by stretching the arms. Your whole body (legs, arms, and core) have to work in conjunction with one another or else you'll throw off your center of gravity and lose lots of momentum. As far as swordwork, it looks like you're fighting with two swords separately, not with two swords fighting as one.
Think of chess. Lets say you are trying to checkmate your opponent's king with a rook and a bishop. If you just try to check with the rook and just try to check with the bishop you won't get anywhere, but when you use them in combination you achieve victory. Relatively the same concept with two swords.
As others recommended try using a shoto and a daito instead of two daitos.
To get used to two swords: keep one of the swords in a ready posture the whole time and with the other practice all nine cuts, get used to maneuvering with the other sword in your hand. Do this with both hands. When practicing the cuts make sure to cut with your whoel body and not just your arms.

I'd recommend finding a live instructor. Try to stay away from kendo (although I have nothing aginast it) if you want to learn actual Nito Ichi or something similar involving blade based swords, since kendo tends to focus on point fighting.

I hope this was helpful, best of luck to you.

 

[Don Black]

Word Surgeon,
When I was your age, I was probably just a impatient as you, and thought that the oldtimers were just shining me on & wanting into my hip pocket.
Trust me ,lad, it just ain't so.
It would be most interesting (and possibly amusing) if you were to print out & save a copy of your post, and perhaps review it every other year or so.
I hope you won't regard this as just another old fart bustin' your chops. That's not my intention.
There is no good substitute for formal training, a fact I learned a half century ago.
Good luck in your endeavors, whatever they may be, and however you choose to persue them.

 

[Sukerkin]

Any further developments, young sir?

I hope that you haven't popped your head above the parapet, learned that what you'd been experimenting with wasn't well received and turned your back on us?

I didn't see this thread when it was born or I might have chimed in with something relevant, given that Japanese swordsmanship is the art that I practise.

As you're in America, there's not a lot I can do in the way of practical assistance but if you're actually interested in developing your study of the sword arts I might be able to point you in a useful direction.

 

[hogstooth]

The problem with using shinai is that you can do thinks with them you can't with a sword and it gives you the wrong impression of what works and what doesn't. A shinai can be swung in any form or fashion and you think that you dealt a killing blow because you hit the opponent. The problem is most get loose and do not practice proper form and thust the killing blow might only be a slap with the side of your sword. Find an instructor in Iaido or Kenjutsu to teach you the fundementals before training with a shinai. The possibility of developing bad habit is great.