Buying a Sword - Please Advise!

[Flying Crane]

Hi everyone,

I was hoping to get a little guidance. I am aware of a store that is closing due to the owner going into retirement, and he is significantly discounting his inventory. Among other things, he sells Japanese swords, most of which are junk, but a few may potentially be decent quality.

Have any of you heard of these two companies: Musashi, or Ryumon?

Apparently these swords are made in China, but they are hand forged and folded, they do appear to have a legitimate hamon, it doesn't look faked to my modestly educated eye.

Only the more expensive pieces were obviously folded from what I could see, tho the others certainly could have been even if they weren't polished enough to make that obvious. At any rate, even the less expensive ones appeared to me to have decent quality steel, altho I am no expert.

The price range for these was originally somewhere around $200 to $1000, but he is discounting as much as 40% to clear out his inventory.

Does this sound like a good opportunity? Anybody have any experience with, or thoughts on, these companies, Musashi, or Ryumon?

Thanks!

 

[Sukerkin]

The following is offered with the provisos that I am a JSA practioner and a bit of a sword-snob at the same time :lol:. Also, I have no hands-on time with these swords myself and can only go on the reports of other swordsmen whose opinions I trust.

Musashi and Ryumon have lots of pretensions and surround their product with 'frills' that seem to indicate quality but in fact are, to butter no parsnips, inferior. Impressive looking 'certificates' that mean nothing accompany the product and poor quality 'flash' fittings adorn blades that are average at best.

They claim that they are folded steel and they probably are (even Chinese manufacturers have to abide by some trade descriptions regulations) but they are folded mono-steel i.e. the folding does nothing of any practical consequence.

$1000 is about half the price a properly forged and fitted blade should be. For that money you can get a good alloy iaito from someone like Tozando and if you are planning to use the sword for iai that is exactly what I would recommend.

However, even a sub-par sword can be a bargain at heavily discounted prices, as long as the buyer is aware of what they are getting.

 

[Flying Crane]

The following is offered with the provisos that I am a JSA practioner and a bit of a sword-snob at the same time :lol:. Also, I have no hands-on time with these swords myself and can only go on the reports of other swordsmen whose opinions I trust.

Musashi and Ryumon have lots of pretensions and surround their product with 'frills' that seem to indicate quality but in fact are, to butter no parsnips, inferior. Impressive looking 'certificates' that mean nothing accompany the product and poor quality 'flash' fittings adorn blades that are average at best.

They claim that they are folded steel and they probably are (even Chinese manufacturers have to abide by some trade descriptions regulations) but they are folded mono-steel i.e. the folding does nothing of any practical consequence.

$1000 is about half the price a properly forged and fitted blade should be. For that money you can get a good alloy iaito from someone like Tozando and if you are planning to use the sword for iai that is exactly what I would recommend.

However, even a sub-par sword can be a bargain at heavily discounted prices, as long as the buyer is aware of what they are getting.

Thank you Suke, that's the kind of advice I need.

I found this review of a Ryumon, please take a look and give me your impressions:

http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/ryumon.html


And here is a review of a higher end Musashi:

http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/authentic-japanese-sword.html

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Flying Crane]

They claim that they are folded steel and they probably are (even Chinese manufacturers have to abide by some trade descriptions regulations) but they are folded mono-steel i.e. the folding does nothing of any practical consequence.

Do you know if they have a differential tempering, or if it is all one temper from spine to edge? If true, does this aliviate some potential for bending, if a cut is not quite perfect?

 

[Sukerkin]

What gives a properly forged katana it's shape is differential tempering i.e. the curve comes about largely through the quenching process. What gives it strength is the folding together of different grades if steel and the bonding together of different sections that are themselves of different 'recipies'.

I'm neither a trained smith nor a metallurgist so anything I have to say on this subject is far from authoratative .

The two reviews you linked to were both from the same chap I think? They claim that the blades were differentially tempered and I have no reason to argue with him.

He and I do have different views on what constitutes 'good quality' tho'. For example, he says that the ito (tsuka wrap) on the first sword is top flight. From just looking it's hard to tell but it looks about the same standard as my Paul Chen Practical Plus, which is to say not that great . Further, he thinks the hamon on the second sword is beautiful whereas I think it is exagerated and stretches too far up the flanks of the blade.

In the end it comes down to what you want it for and what you are expecting.

A Chinese produced katana-shaped sword is not a katana in the eyes of many and it is true that the quality is never going to be the same. A Japanese smith might make a blade a month and the polishing process and production of fittings can take just as long. A Chinese factory can not hope to output something equivalent. However, there is such a thing as 'close enough', especially for a low price and as long as the genuine article is not around for comparison I reckon many would be satisfied with one of the high-end Chinese offerings.

 

[Flying Crane]

The two reviews you linked to were both from the same chap I think? They claim that the blades were differentially tempered and I have no reason to argue with him.

yes, I believe they were the same guy. It's possible it was truly differentially tempered, but I found another review on that website of a lower end Musashi, priced around $150 or $200, and in that one he states that it is not differentially tempered and the hamon is faked, but done fairly well, so I suppose it doesn't look like it was just ripped out with a belt sander. He even has a short video clip where he clamps the blade and then flexes it to 45 degrees, and it comes back to true. Would this happen with a true layered blade with differential temper?

He and I do have different views on what constitutes 'good quality' tho'. For example, he says that the ito (tsuka wrap) on the first sword is top flight. From just looking it's hard to tell but it looks about the same standard as my Paul Chen Practical Plus, which is to say not that great . Further, he thinks the hamon on the second sword is beautiful whereas I think it is exagerated and stretches too far up the flanks of the blade.

understood, and I would expect no less from someone dedicated to serious practice of Japanese swordsmanship. Which is why I was particularly interested in your impressions.

In the end it comes down to what you want it for and what you are expecting.

A Chinese produced katana-shaped sword is not a katana in the eyes of many and it is true that the quality is never going to be the same. A Japanese smith might make a blade a month and the polishing process and production of fittings can take just as long. A Chinese factory can not hope to output something equivalent. However, there is such a thing as 'close enough', especially for a low price and as long as the genuine article is not around for comparison I reckon many would be satisfied with one of the high-end Chinese offerings.

I understand these points as well, and fully take that into consideration in this. I guess my motivation was in simply discovering that these items are available locally at a significant discount, and thought it might be nice to add one to my personal collection. I fully understand that these are not true Japanese swords, and their quality is different as well and they may perform differently.

My main interest in purchasing a piece is that it is "functional" in the sense that it is durable and could stand up to some legitimate use, and isn't a junky wall-hanger. Even if I never have the opportunity to train with the item to learn to use it properly, I want to know that the piece itself is "real" in a basic sort of way, even if it is only an imitation of the original. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Sukerkin]

I reckon that perhaps you should take advantage of the opportunity available, my friend. I know that you're too sensible a man to start hacking at trees and so on with it and they'll clearly stand up to 'normal' handling and use.

As with many things, the price-to-quality ratio with katana gets pretty steep really early. My live-blade Chen PPK cost about £200 and it not a patch on my Tozando iaito, which cost more than twice as much, even tho' it's 'only' alloy. Similarly, my Tozando is not a patch on my fellow students 'real deal' modern shinken which cost £1000 or so.

All of these are not a patch on sensei's sword - that is the real 'real deal' being a 16th century blade worth {mumbles} :faints:.

Something to bear in mind if you get one of these 'cheap' swords is that the fittings can be replaced with better as and when funds become available. Just don't spend more on the 'pretty bits' than the blade deserves .

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Like Sukerkin I am of the opinion that when moving in this direction you should buy quality. His advice is all good. I think in the end you could buy a nice Japanese made iaito that has great fittings and feels right for a decent price say $500 to $1,000. I think in the end you would be much happier than purchasing a cheap or moderately priced inferior live sword. If you go the iaito route with a good one eventually you can purchase a decent shinken in the $3,000 range.

 

[Charles Mahan]

Without exception, every Musashi blade I have seen has looked reasonably nice, but everytime I've checked the tsukaito, the folds in the ito move with just moderately firm pressure, ie the wrap's are pretty loose. The wrap will stand up to display, and maybe some occasional light cutting(althought I wouldn't), but they will not stand up to the rigors of regular training.

 

[cdunn]

What gives a properly forged katana it's shape is differential tempering i.e. the curve comes about largely through the quenching process. What gives it strength is the folding together of different grades if steel and the bonding together of different sections that are themselves of different 'recipies'.

I'm neither a trained smith nor a metallurgist so anything I have to say on this subject is far from authoratative .

When talking about steel for a katana, you do, indeed have two major factors: The particular steel used, and the tempering process used. Tamahagane, the traditional Japanese steel, from a material engineer's point of view, is essentially trash when it comes out of the smelter. It is of irregular composition, with many included impurities. The folding process is the answer to this. By blending everything together, combined with the recrystallization that occurs during tempering, and careful reduction of the worst of the impurities, a close approximation of a metallurgically uniform high carbon steel is created. With good input steel into the process, the importance of this process goes down a lot. If the steel going in is less than superb, however, the folding process can rescue it.

Differential tempering, however, isn't really a skippable process. Through controlling the different 'phases', or crystal compositions, of the steel, it creates a very, very hard and brittle edge, and a soft and flexible core and back. This produces a situation where the edge can be ground sharper, and it will hold that sharper edge longer, but there is a tendency for cracking in the leading edge of the blade. Those cracks, however, are generally slowed and reduced by the soft body of the blade. Functionally, the chinese sanmei process produces a very similar composite weapon. A through-tempered sword, however, does not have this balance. The leading edge cannot be sharpened as far, and will not hold that sharp edge as long. When it cracks, it will be more difficult to initiate the crack, but it will be more likely to fail massively, cracking clean through. The engineering decision for the katana has been to take the easier to crack, harder to fail-through blade - For what a katana was designed to face, it was probably the best possible decision.

 

[Flying Crane]

What do you folks think about a blade made from a spring steel, such as 5160? I know it's used in a lot of Western style weapons, it's tough and durable and can take punishment. How do you feel about this kind of thing in a katana style weapon?

 

[Sukerkin]

Leaving aside any cultural or art based issues, I would only imagine that such a blade would be of use if forged blunt and used for 'sparring' - not a practise I would encourage for the JSA .

I have a Bastard Sword made of somesuch steel and it is indeed very durable and flexible, useful for 'play fighting' because it is likely to bend rather than break. However, given that many techniques with the katana rely upon it's rigidity, a 'floppity' blade is not ideal.

 

[Flying Crane]

Leaving aside any cultural or art based issues, I would only imagine that such a blade woud be of use if forged blunt and used for 'sparring' - not a practise I would encourage for the JSA .

I have a Bastard Sword made of somesuch steel and it is indeed very durable and flexible, useful for 'play fighting' because it is likely to bend rather than break. However, given that many techniques with the katana rely upon it's rigidity, a 'floppity' blade is not ideal.

Good thoughts. How about if the blade was sufficiently thick in the spine that it was not floppy. The characteristics of the steel would still make it very resilient, but its thickness would make the reality of it much stiffer. Might there be merit in that idea?

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm sure that there are ways to stiffen up such a blade (ooh er, nurse ) but other factors such as weight and balance might start to intrude if the back (mune) of the blade started to get too thick.

Of course, my views are biased towards an iai-like use of the katana, so I'm mentally focussed on the draw, resheathing and blade-handling along with the staple fast draw-cuts for which the katana was designed.

 

[Flying Crane]

Without exception, every Musashi blade I have seen has looked reasonably nice, but everytime I've checked the tsukaito, the folds in the ito move with just moderately firm pressure, ie the wrap's are pretty loose. The wrap will stand up to display, and maybe some occasional light cutting(althought I wouldn't), but they will not stand up to the rigors of regular training.

This is very telling, and I thank you for sharing this observation.

My experience with swords is mainly with Chinese jian and dao. I actually make custom hilts and scabbards for these. One thing I've observed is that the hilt for these Chinese weapons are somewhat similar to a European hilt, in that there are basically 3 pieces: a guard, grip, and pommel, they fit together on the tang and are held in place by a threaded nut on the end, or the tang is peened over. If you really want to get paranoid about it, you can epoxy the tang before you put the pieces together and then it's never gonna come apart. My tendency to do this stems from the plethora of really poorly constructed Chinese swords on the market, where the hilt consruction has been really shoddy. In a martial arts demonstration I witnessed a number of years ago, a guy got up to demonstrate a dao in front of a fairly large audience. He made one step into his form, snapped his wushu-light dao out, and it literally exploded in his hand. The blade flew out, followed by the guard, the pommel dropped straight down to the floor, and he was left with nothing but a cheap wooden grip in his hand. Luckily nobody was hurt, but seeing that, and the poor construction on most of these weapons, has encouraged me to add the extra protection of epoxy whenever I build a hilt.

But it seems that Japanese style swords are built for the hilt to come apart for maintenance, and the hilt itself is much more complex than the typical Chinese or European design. There are more pieces in the construction as well as the grip wrapping, and they all need to fit just right, and be made out of appropriate materials. If the fittings are not quite right, or the materials are inferior, this can create a looseness in the hilt. Not much worse than a sword with a loose hilt. Big source of frustration, I am sure.

The fact that you have consistently observed this in the Musashi brand is a big encouragement for me to not make the purchase.

I'm still a bit on the fence about it, perhaps for the money this could be a good value, but for a bit more money the value could be significantly greater. Thanks much for this information.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm sure that there are ways to stiffen up such a blade (ooh er, nurse ) but other factors such as weight and balance might start to intrude if the back (mune) of the blade started to get too thick.

Of course, my views are biased towards an iai-like use of the katana, so I'm mentally focussed on the draw, resheathing and blade-handling along with the staple fast draw-cuts for which the katana was designed.

Ok, and without the proper training I have only a very superficial understanding of this, but I follow what you are saying.

I've seen reference to katana taking a bend during a poorly executed cut. Is this common with a traditional blade of high quality? I believe it happened in the review of the high end Musashi that I linked to, after he cut some heavier tree limbs.

I guess I'm wondering if a spring steel would eliminate that, and if constructed properly, would it otherwise perform similarly to a traditional blade? I'm not suggesting a spring steel such as the light wushu blades. Those are ultralight, and are just downright floppy. But I've got a few blades made by Angus Trim, who uses 5160 spring steel. They are springy, but they are also stiff. They don't flop around, but you can bend them if you do so deliberately, and they spring back. In my mind, this seems like a good solution for a blade recovering from a poorly executed cut that might twist or bend the blade a bit.

On a review of the lower end Musashi, he posted a short video clip where he bent the blade to 45 degrees, and it sprang back to true. Obviously this was a blade made with a spring steel of some sort.

Basically what I think I'm trying to do is reconcile my experience with the Chinese blades, and understand the difference between that and how a Japanese blade is constructed and is expected to perform. So I'm fishing for info and comparing with prior experiences, which may just cloud the water a bit, but that's just where I am.

 

[cdunn]

'Spring Steel' is a really, really broad descriptor - all it means is you can use it in a spring reasonably.

That said, AISI grades 1040, 1060 are generally considered, afaik, to be fairly decent sword steels. I have also heard good things about L6. The chrome content of 5160 makes me kind of leery of it, but that's a gut feel - I don't have any hard data of how much lower chromium contents affect the boundary conditions between the steel grains. The same properties that make chrome a good corrosion protectant embrittle the steel - There is a reason we make bridges and buildings out of standard steel and paint them instead of making them out of stainless.

With all of these, though, temper, temper, temper is everything. The tempering process can take the most perfect of steels and destroy them, and it can take the most marginal of steels and turn it into an adequate performer for the project at hand. You cannot emphasize the correct thermal treatment of the steel enough.

 

[Flying Crane]

The chrome content of 5160 makes me kind of leery of it, but that's a gut feel - I don't have any hard data of how much lower chromium contents affect the boundary conditions between the steel grains. The same properties that make chrome a good corrosion protectant embrittle the steel

I am familiar with that and understand that a big component of stainless steel is the chromium content, and this is what generally makes stainless a poor choice for sword blades, the brittleness that the chromium brings to it.

I do not know the specific alloying content in 5160, in fact I had not heard that it had chromium in it at all. I had found a website discussing metallurgy in respect to blade making, and it suggested that 5160 would be considered a high end steel for a sword blade.

I also have Jim Hrousolas three books on sword forging, and he discusses the qualities of many different steels. I will take another look at what he has to say about 5160. I don't recall him saying anything negative about it, but I'll take a second look.

thanks for bringing that up tho, it's always good to review the materials from time to time.

 

[cdunn]

5160 composition, wt %:

C 0.55 to 0.64
Mn 0.75 to 1.00
P 0.035 Max
S 0.040 Max
Si 0.15 to 0.30
Cr 0.70 to 0.90

http://www.knivesby.com/5160.html


HRC 55-60 is where you want to be on a differentially hardened edge. If they use it for flat springs, it must be pretty decent for repeated stressings. So, my gut is probably leading me astray. If Gus is using 5160, I'm not going to second guess him - The materials field I work in is pretty far removed from steel.

 

[pgsmith]

Hey Michael,
Just catching up to this thread, so I'll throw my two cent's worth into it ...
As regards the discounted swords, it depends on what you're looking for, and what the price is. If he has them at 40% off of his marked price but you can still buy it cheaper on the internet, then I wouldn't think it was too great of a deal. The biggest problem that I've come across in any of the Chinese made "Japanese style" swords, is that the quality of any individual sword can vary greatly from one right next to it. The way they are made, there are a number of people working in a factory putting these together. If the person doing the final shaping and polish is good at it, then you'll get a decently shaped sword. Likewise, if the person wrapping the handle knows what he's doing, then you'll get a decently tight wrap. The problem is getting a sword where all of the people working on it were good at their jobs. There are far less of those out there. Being able to handle the sword in person before buying it can help eliminate the guesswork that's usually involved with it. I'm sure you can find lots of information on both Ryumon and Musashi if you search for them over on Swordforum.

As regards high end blades bending, yes they will. Due to the nature of Japanese swords, they are actually meant to bend if you seriously mess up. However, proper training will tend to eliminate that problem, and higher quality swords tend to have much better heat treatment, which means that they don't bend as easily. On a slightly different note, whacking tree branches with a katana is foolish. They are designed to cut flesh, not foliage. Machete or khukri are more properly designed to cut tree limbs without damaging the sword.

As regards 5160 steel, it is good for European style blades, not katana, due to its lower carbon content which will not allow it to harden as much as needed. European style blades are not generally as sharp as katana, and they will not hold the edge as long. This is because of the method wherein they are used. Katana are designed to be very sharp due to the hardness of the edge. Don't mean to argue with Mr. Dunn, but lower 60's on the Rockwell hardness range is where I've been told the edge on a Japanese sword should be. Western swords have edges in the mid 50's. However, it is the softness of the back of the blade (mid to upper 40's) which allows the edge to be so hard and not crack. As far as I'm aware, there's only one sword that combines the hardness of a traditional katana edge with a spring back rather than a soft back. That's Howard Clark's L6 bainite blades. He's only able to do that because of the intricate cryogenic hardening regimen he follows.