Questions about Wushu

DocWard

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I have a few questions about Wushu, and I assume that this is the place to get them answered. The reason for my curiosity is that it appears my oldest daughter is interested in taking classes in Wushu back in our home town. I am in Kuwait at the moment, so I can't really discuss things with the instructor directly. I tried to research the art on the board, but sometimes my time is limited, and I had a hard time finding the answers I need.

It does appear that there is a major difference between "traditional" and "modern" Wushu, with the latter being focused on performance and gymnastic/tumbling type moves. Is this accurate? Does or can modern Wushu have any martial applications? My daughter can certainly use the balance and coordination that will come from the training, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if she learned more in the way of self-defense as well.

What should she look for, or look to avoid, in the art to keep herself healthy and relatively injury free? What are the inherent dangers in the art?

What is the consensus opinion of the art?

Thanks in advance.
 

clfsean

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I have a few questions about Wushu, and I assume that this is the place to get them answered. The reason for my curiosity is that it appears my oldest daughter is interested in taking classes in Wushu back in our home town. I am in Kuwait at the moment, so I can't really discuss things with the instructor directly. I tried to research the art on the board, but sometimes my time is limited, and I had a hard time finding the answers I need.

Come home safe.

It does appear that there is a major difference between "traditional" and "modern" Wushu, with the latter being focused on performance and gymnastic/tumbling type moves. Is this accurate? Does or can modern Wushu have any martial applications? My daughter can certainly use the balance and coordination that will come from the training, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if she learned more in the way of self-defense as well.

IMHO yes there's a difference with Modern Wushu (MW) being more overtly performance oriented. People say there's martial applications there, but I don't see it. Coming from a Traditional Wushu (TW) style, everything we do you can see application from day 1. We don't look for aethestics in motion & form. We focus on developing proper body mechanics & power generation for application of the technique. I'm not saying a MW player can't hit hard. I'm saying they don't train with that in mind. If you watch MW performances, you see things like over extended joints, superfluous motion, stringing together of motions (techniques) that make no sense application wise but are highly athletic in nature & aethestic to the eye. TW while it may carry some aesthetic attributes, you can see the direction of the technique & with a developed practitioner, power generated & focus/intent of the technique.

What should she look for, or look to avoid, in the art to keep herself healthy and relatively injury free? What are the inherent dangers in the art?

To avoid? Watch the stances, their horse stances (again IMHO) are out of proper alignment & structure lending to un-necessary strains & pulls. Same with the punching. Watch the elbows. Inherit dangers though are the same with any MA. It's a contact game. The biggest thing is to listen & practice what she's told how & when. If the coach is good or has TW in their background, these things should be easily compensated for while maintaining the MW appearance.

What is the consensus opinion of the art?

It produces some of the most incredible atheletes I've seen, but to me, it's gymastics in nifty silks.

Thanks in advance.

Yep...
 

JadeDragon3

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Modern wu shu does have martial applicability. Modern wu shu is traditional wu shu to the extreme. Stances are lower, kicks are higher, and punches are faster and more "clean". There are some things that are not practical and are more for performance sake such as a butterfly kick. Some say wu shu is not a martial art and that it is more for performance sake. I ask you this though.....If a modern wu shu player can kick really high above thier head then why couldn't this same person kick to the groin level? People who say that modern wu shu people can't fight are crazy. I know plenty of modern wu shu people who can fight. I myself do both traditional and modern wu shu. I love both. If your daughter wants to compete then modern wu shu is what she'll need to win. Everyone including other styles are incorporating gymnastic type moves into their kata/forms. Hope this has helped.
 

Kwanjang

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All I know that traditional chinese martial arts (Wu Shu) is beautiful. Now I am a Tkdist who practices hapkido. How can you look at a master of Wu Shu and not see its effectiveness. Interesting to youtube Jet Li also type "champioship" There is footage of him at 13- most incredable! I understand Jet mainly use the Long Fist system. Does anyone know for sure what system. I think, if he (Jet LI) had to, he could put a severve a---kicking on someone.
 

JadeDragon3

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Modern wu shu is a mix of forms from alot of different kung fu styles. For the sake of this post I'm just going to use the term wu shu meaning modern wu shu. Wu shu has forms from drunken boxing, long fist, southern fist, di tong (ground fighting art), broadsword, whip chain, pu dao, quan do, spear, etc.... All these forms and others make up wu shu. What seperates wu shu from trad. kung fu is that wu shu uses a lot more acrabatical moves such as butterfly kicks, butterfly twists, aerials, kip ups, jump inside crescent kicks, etc.... If a person can distiguish what is practical and what is not then wu shu can be used for martial combat. Obviously one would not do a butterfly twist in a real fight BUT one would use a side kick or roundhouse kick and wu shu has those kick as well. On a side note, those who do wu shu are usually in quite good shape due to the endurance level needed to perform these fast paced, high acrabatical form.
 

JadeDragon3

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Come home safe.

IMHO yes there's a difference with Modern Wushu (MW) being more overtly performance oriented. People say there's martial applications there, but I don't see it. Coming from a Traditional Wushu (TW) style, everything we do you can see application from day 1. We don't look for aethestics in motion & form. We focus on developing proper body mechanics & power generation for application of the technique. I'm not saying a MW player can't hit hard. I'm saying they don't train with that in mind. If you watch MW performances, you see things like over extended joints, superfluous motion, stringing together of motions (techniques) that make no sense application wise but are highly athletic in nature & aethestic to the eye. TW while it may carry some aesthetic attributes, you can see the direction of the technique & with a developed practitioner, power generated & focus/intent of the technique.

To avoid? Watch the stances, their horse stances (again IMHO) are out of proper alignment & structure lending to un-necessary strains & pulls. Same with the punching. Watch the elbows. Inherit dangers though are the same with any MA. It's a contact game. The biggest thing is to listen & practice what she's told how & when. If the coach is good or has TW in their background, these things should be easily compensated for while maintaining the MW appearance.

It produces some of the most incredible atheletes I've seen, but to me, it's gymastics in nifty silks.

Yep...

How can you not see martial art applicability in wu shu (modern)? There are plenty of techniques in wu shu that can be used in actual combat (granted there are a lot that can not be used as well). A side kick is a side kick or roundhouse kick is a roundhouse kick weather you do modern or traditional wu shu. The only difference in the two is that the modern wu shu practicioner is a little bit more flexible and does their kicks higher than the traditionalist. And their is some more high risk moves (the high risk move are the ones that you would not use in real lifecombat).
 

clfsean

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How can you not see martial art applicability in wu shu (modern)?

Easily... ask one to do saam sing. That's basic conditioning for both northern & southern systems.

There are plenty of techniques in wu shu that can be used in actual combat (granted there are a lot that can not be used as well).

I've seen (in person, in China) enough modern to say it's ineffectual. Some of the older routines (that aren't taught anymore) were closer to being effectual in composition & technique than the routines the play now.

But for grins... please tell me how the technique of "running 20 yards & doing a jump cut the eye kick & landing *** dragging on the ground with a movie style severe look on the face but cool pose" works?

A side kick is a side kick or roundhouse kick is a roundhouse kick weather you do modern or traditional wu shu.

Nope... if it's never used as a kick (i.e. against bags, people, timing drills, conditioning) then it's not a kick. It's a swinging leg with no intent to damage, just look cool or because it was required in the compulsary routine.

The only difference in the two is that the modern wu shu practicioner is a little bit more flexible and does their kicks higher than the traditionalist.

That's great. BFD... can they apply what they know as it was taught to them? If they can't, well...

And their is some more high risk moves (the high risk move are the ones that you would not use in real lifecombat).

I call that gymnastics.
 

clfsean

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All I know that traditional chinese martial arts (Wu Shu) is beautiful. Now I am a Tkdist who practices hapkido. How can you look at a master of Wu Shu and not see its effectiveness. Interesting to youtube Jet Li also type "champioship" There is footage of him at 13- most incredable! I understand Jet mainly use the Long Fist system. Does anyone know for sure what system. I think, if he (Jet LI) had to, he could put a severve a---kicking on someone.

Pretty easily. Jet Li didn't pick up TCMA until much later in life/career. All the video of his competition work is all Modern wushu. BUT... the compulsaries he performed were the 1st & maybe 2nd generation sets of the modern Chang Quan. The 1st generation was barely toned down from the TCMA root styles (Hong, Pao, Hua, Hua, Zha). The 2nd started getting away from the martial content more based on one of Mao's preceipts "Comrades do not fight each other"... meaning as more people learn it, it needs to be more useless.

As for his speciality system, Fan Zi Quan. Again... the modern version not the traditional.
 

Flying Crane

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Traditional Wushu (commonly known as kung fu) is the fighting arts of China, some of which are very old, but all of which are designed to be very effective as a fighting and self defense method.

Modern Wushu was created by the Communist government in China beginning in the 1950s, based on elements taken from traditional wushu. The purpose of modern wushu was very deliberately meant to be as a Chinese national sport, and performance art, and contains a lot of material that is not effective in a fighting art. There are a lot of gymnastic type movements, asthetic posturing, and extreme kinds of techiques that look good to an audience and impress a judge in the same way that a gymnastics routine is impressive. Successful competitors in modern wushu are usually elite athletes, and in this they are very impressive.

There is no pretending in Modern Wushu to be a fighting art, however. Yes, on a superficial level, it does look like fighting traditional wushu. But it is not. There are crucial differences in how basic techniques and stances and whatnot are done, that are meant to make the movement prettier, but it also often diminishes its effectiveness. More importantly, the understanding of how the movement would be applied in a real fight is definitely NOT a focus in typical modern wushu training. Usually, modern wushu champions simply do not understand how they would even apply the movements that they know, even if they could hypothetically be useful. They have simply memorized and mastered their performance of a fixed athletic routine.

The dangers in modern wushu are that it can lead to injuries. Sure, this can happen in any martial art. But I think the injuries that happen in modern wushu are avoidable. They often push the limits of what the body can do, all in the name of performance. And inevitably, people get hurt from it. The way certain things are done simply lead to injury. When landing from arial techniques and gymnastic moves, they often like to land hard in a dramatic stance. The problem is, this leads to foot injuries and fallen arches which can plague you in later years. So some injuries are gradual and you don't realize they are happening until it's too late. Other injuries are acute and happen because you are simply trying to do something that is too extreme, with the only benefit being to impress an audience and win a medal. So you can end up with pulled or torn muscles, sprains, twisted ankles, fallen arches, chronic lower back pain, etc.

Modern wushu can be impressive to watch, the competitors are outstanding athletes. But it is not fighting kung fu, altho I have heard that there is a movement among some people to try and bring the fighting usefulness back into modern wushu. How successful they have been, I do not know. But modern wushu, at the international competition level, is still controlled by the Chinese government, and they write and re-write the competition rules as they see fit. They create the new forms that competitors are expected to learn if they want to be successful at the international level. And they are the ones who are often pushing the athletes to more and more extreme movements that lead to injuries. And these people are often old men sitting behind a desk coming up with these ideas out of their imagination. They can't do it themselves, they won't even try, but they expect the athletes to do them. Even the premier groups like the Beijing Wushu Team are wrapping their ankles and knees and stuff, because they are chronically injured. My sifu, who trained with them in the 1980s, said that was not the case back then, and it is disturbing to see it happening now.

So I guess you need to ask yourself, what does your daughter want? Does she want real self defense skills? Then do a traditional Chinese martial art that is designed for this and trains appropriately.

Does she want to be a gymnastics competitor with a martial arts flavor, and a willingness to risk injury for the sake of performance? Then she ought to do modern wushu.

Either method can develop someone into a very strong athlete. But the end purpose is very different.
 

Xue Sheng

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Lets put it this way

In China

Traditional Wushu people learned traditional wushu and they could fight

Modern Wushu people also are trained Sanshou so they can fight.

Modern Wushu comes from traditional so it comes from a fighting art. The physicality required to do modern Wushu would most certainly get you into good shape with a high degree of flexibility that could easily transfer to training traditional Wushu. But now a days in China Modern Wushu is pushing the limits of what the human body can do and people are getting hurt.
 
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DocWard

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Thanks for the information, everyone. And I hope not to have created a thread that will lead to ruffled feathers. I believe many of my questions have been answered.

As for my daughter's interests, I think she is interested in it because she sees it as both interesting and something that can be used as an adjunct to her cross-country training. I assume they start slow, but I will definitely have to tell her to take it easy prior to and during cross-country seasons if she sticks with it. I don't believe she is interested in competing or performing in it, but I could always be wrong, and the bug could bite her later.

If it seems that if they aren't doing any contact work (bags, sparring), then could I perhaps work with her on the outside with focus pads and the like? Or is there a dramatic enough difference between Wushu and Kenpo (my background) that it wouldn't be a good idea?

I'm not aware of any TCMA schools in my area, so getting her to one of those isn't likely. Besides, the Wushu is at a center where my youngest daughter goes for dance, causing me to assume it is more performance oriented than self defense oriented. If I had my preference, I would have her and my younger daughter both doing either Kenpo or Ninjutsu. Please don't take that as a slight against the Chinese arts, because it isn't. My background is in Kenpo, and I am interested in taking Ninjutsu, so it would be for practical (and some selfish, admittedly) purposes only.

Thanks again for the info and the well wishes.
 

clfsean

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What part of Ohio are originally from. There's some top notch TCMA in the area that's only got one function ... :D
 

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If it seems that if they aren't doing any contact work (bags, sparring), then could I perhaps work with her on the outside with focus pads and the like? Or is there a dramatic enough difference between Wushu and Kenpo (my background) that it wouldn't be a good idea?

You could, but I suspect you would actually need to teach her yourself how to do this. As CLFSEAN pointed out, the intention in how modern wushu people throw punches and kicks is different. They don't train with contact, so they don't understand how to do it properly. They just throw the leg up without real kicking intent. So she may develop flexibility and whatnot, but in terms of actually learning to use the kicks and striking for real, you might need to teacher her how to do it.
 
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DocWard

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What part of Ohio are originally from. There's some top notch TCMA in the area that's only got one function ... :D

About half an hour from Dayton. The thing is, if it were just her interested in a martial art, then it wouldn't be such a problem. But with cross-country for her, dance for my younger daughter, guitar lessons for both daughters, wife training because she rides horses competitively, me getting back and taking guitar back up, as well as a martial art (I hope), among other things, time to drive any distance for a lesson might be at a definite premium!
 

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Easily... ask one to do saam sing. That's basic conditioning for both northern & southern systems.

I've seen (in person, in China) enough modern to say it's ineffectual. Some of the older routines (that aren't taught anymore) were closer to being effectual in composition & technique than the routines the play now.

But for grins... please tell me how the technique of "running 20 yards & doing a jump cut the eye kick & landing *** dragging on the ground with a movie style severe look on the face but cool pose" works?

Nope... if it's never used as a kick (i.e. against bags, people, timing drills, conditioning) then it's not a kick. It's a swinging leg with no intent to damage, just look cool or because it was required in the compulsary routine.

That's great. BFD... can they apply what they know as it was taught to them? If they can't, well...

I call that gymnastics.

Well first off if you break down a compulsary form technique by technique you can use a lot of them in a fight but put a string of them together and probably not. As for your question "can they apply the techniques", I'd say that depends on weather thier sifu taught that to them. Bye the way, a lot of wu shu athletes do trad kung fu as well and know how to apply the techniques. I know several wu shu people that are awesome fighters as well. My Sifu did wu shu and is known to be a good fighter.
 

clfsean

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Well first off if you break down a compulsary form technique by technique you can use a lot of them in a fight but put a string of them together and probably not.

There's problem #1... sets are supposed to used to teach logical progression & chaining of techniques together, among other things. If they don't make sense, why do them?

As for your question "can they apply the techniques", I'd say that depends on weather thier sifu taught that to them.

Whether or not the teacher shows them is problem #2. They should know the primary & subsequent application(s) of the technique & variations of them on top of it. If the teacher doesn't know how to apply a thing, why learn it unless you're doing it for show purposes only.

Bye the way, a lot of wu shu athletes do trad kung fu as well and know how to apply the techniques. I know several wu shu people that are awesome fighters as well. My Sifu did wu shu and is known to be a good fighter.

Great for your sifu (but your sifu also learned the Ng stuff too which is supposed to be a TCMA family art) & great for them. The discussion here is talking in general terms for the whole of the modern wushu world. I've seen & met modern wushu players that when asked "How do you use 'X'?" they went straight out of the form & damn near killed themselves when a little resisting force was applied.

I can't physically do 1/4 of what they do. However I can use 100% of what I know to defend myself & teach others how to do the same.
 

clfsean

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About half an hour from Dayton. The thing is, if it were just her interested in a martial art, then it wouldn't be such a problem. But with cross-country for her, dance for my younger daughter, guitar lessons for both daughters, wife training because she rides horses competitively, me getting back and taking guitar back up, as well as a martial art (I hope), among other things, time to drive any distance for a lesson might be at a definite premium!

How far is that from Akron? Premium TCMA is found here by the bundle... http://wutangcenter.com/wt/index.html

Or Medina?? Same stuff, student of Tony Yang
http://www.wutangbrunswick.com/gpage4.html

Tallmadge?? Same same...
http://www.bodymindharmony.com/
 

JadeDragon3

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CLF.......would you actually take a form from TCMA and try to do it move for move in an actual fight? God I hope not. What you said sounds like your saying that a wu shu form should be able to be done move for move in a fight. A person cound take a move from a form and apply it to a situation in real life. But to take a entire form and apply it, no. So my question is why can't someone take a move from a wu shu form and apply it?
 

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Bye the way, a lot of wu shu athletes do trad kung fu as well and know how to apply the techniques. I know several wu shu people that are awesome fighters as well. My Sifu did wu shu and is known to be a good fighter.

Why do you think they can fight? Is it because they do modern wushu, or is it because they also trained in traditional wushu?

My sifu also coaches modern wushu, but he also can fight. That's because he had a strong background in traditional wushu with some excellent teachers long before he began training in modern wushu. So he knows the difference, and that makes all the difference in the world. But if he needed to fight now, he wouldn't use modern wushu...
 

clfsean

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CLF.......would you actually take a form from TCMA and try to do it move for move in an actual fight? God I hope not. What you said sounds like your saying that a wu shu form should be able to be done move for move in a fight. A person cound take a move from a form and apply it to a situation in real life. But to take a entire form and apply it, no. So my question is why can't someone take a move from a wu shu form and apply it?

An entire form? Hell no... a sequence from the form or partial sequence? 2 or more techniques strung together logically with motion that feeds the next technique. Why not? That's one of the old ways of creating sets.

Besides that, if a person is able to take a single motion & end a conflict, they need to try the UFC with that kind of KO power.
 

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