Questions about Wushu

Xue Sheng

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CLF.......would you actually take a form from TCMA and try to do it move for move in an actual fight? God I hope not. What you said sounds like your saying that a wu shu form should be able to be done move for move in a fight. A person cound take a move from a form and apply it to a situation in real life. But to take a entire form and apply it, no. So my question is why can't someone take a move from a wu shu form and apply it?

In modern Wushu do they ever train applications of the form or striking with the form?

In the Changquan that some of Modern Wushu comes form they sure do.

Like I said many modern Wushu people in China, if they want martial arts train Sanshou. Hell Shaolin trains sanshou now, whats that tell ya.
 
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DocWard

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clfsean

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In modern Wushu do they ever train applications of the form or striking with the form?

**Raises hand, bouncing in chair**

I KNOW, I KNOW

In the Changquan that some of Modern Wushu comes form they sure do.

Yep... know a couple of Chang Quan (TCMA) people I don't want to be hit by... ever. They "got it"!

Like I said many modern Wushu people in China, if they want martial arts train Sanshou. Hell Shaolin trains sanshou now, whats that tell ya.

When I was in China in '01 at both Liang Yi quan's school in Dengfeng & Zhao Chang jun's school in Xi'an, they had san shou teams separate from the forms people. The san shou people I watched at Shaolin (Liang's & the schools around the temple that aren't there anymore) hit, hit hard & often & being thrown meant hitting the ground, not a lei tai with mats. At Zhao's, san shou meant being tossed on concrete with that high weave carpet they use for padding.
 

clfsean

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Xue Sheng

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When I was in China in '01 at both Liang Yi quan's school in Dengfeng & Zhao Chang jun's school in Xi'an, they had san shou teams separate from the forms people. The san shou people I watched at Shaolin (Liang's & the schools around the temple that aren't there anymore) hit, hit hard & often & being thrown meant hitting the ground, not a lei tai with mats. At Zhao's, san shou meant being tossed on concrete with that high weave carpet they use for padding.

Oh I am not doubting thier ability with sanshou (my sanda [sanshou] sifu is from North China and was trained there) and I have no desire to go up against any of those training sanshou in China. My sifu does not even think about mats and also thinks heavy bags are to soft to train striking.

But from what I understand (and to be honest I wish I was wrong) the majority of the "Traditional" forms taught at shaolin are just that forms and the fighting comes form sanshou.
 

clfsean

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Oh I am not doubting thier ability with sanshou (my sanda [sanshou] sifu is from North China and was trained there) and I have no desire to go up against any of those training sanshou in China. My sifu does not even think about mats and also thinks heavy bags are to soft to train striking.

Hehehe... in Chen village... their punching bags were canvas sacks with dirt/sand/ground in them that had hardened from being out in the elements on their hanging stand to almost concrete. They showed old blood stains as well as fresh. This though was at the old school in the village, not the new school just outside the village.

Also... in Southern TCMA, we use dummies & sand bags. What's that lead you to believe? Yep, you guessed it... we're a bit tweaked. :D

But from what I understand (and to be honest I wish I was wrong) the majority of the "Traditional" forms taught at shaolin are just that forms and the fighting comes form sanshou.

Yep... that'd be the size of it. Now the one thing I will say is at least at the schools in Dengfeng, the kids do hit & kicks pads on a regular basis, but if they want to go sanshou, that's all they do. If they don't, then do do forms & supply monks for the shows at Shaolin.
 

Flying Crane

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But from what I understand (and to be honest I wish I was wrong) the majority of the "Traditional" forms taught at shaolin are just that forms and the fighting comes form sanshou.

If you are talking about at the shaolin temple itself, it is my understanding that the forms being done there are primarily modern wushu based, and are meant as mostly a turist attraction.

When my sifu was at the temple, he did some traditional longfist that he learned from Wong Jack Man, and the older monks there said "oh yes, we remember when this used to be done here..."
 

clfsean

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If you are talking about at the shaolin temple itself, it is my understanding that the forms being done there are primarily modern wushu based, and are meant as mostly a turist attraction.

They have their 10 core traditional sets but most for performance is wushu. There's even a standard "compulsary" Shaolin set now for competition.

When my sifu was at the temple, he did some traditional longfist that he learned from Wong Jack Man, and the older monks there said "oh yes, we remember when this used to be done here..."

Yeah Gene Ching said the same thing when he did BSL #6. They didn't recognize it as one of their sets, but they recognized it for what it is.
 
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DocWard

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No worries... check this place out...

Meng's Martial Arts - Centerville‎ - more info 罈
51 E. Spring Valley Rd., Centerville, OH - (937) 236-6485‎

Benny Meng... kinda controversial in the Wing Chun world, but nobody I've heard of doubts his hands...

Yes, that is closer, about 45 minutes, depending on traffic. If it were just her, without all of the other responsibilities, that might be one I would consider. I believe one of the guys I work with in my civilian job used to go there, now that you mention it. Why is he controversial?
 

clfsean

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Yes, that is closer, about 45 minutes, depending on traffic. If it were just her, without all of the other responsibilities, that might be one I would consider. I believe one of the guys I work with in my civilian job used to go there, now that you mention it. Why is he controversial?

Claims made for lost lineages, history, blah blah blah... normal stuff, but his Wing Chun (or Weng Chun as they spell it) is pretty dad-gummed good.
 

Xue Sheng

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Hehehe... in Chen village... their punching bags were canvas sacks with dirt/sand/ground in them that had hardened from being out in the elements on their hanging stand to almost concrete. They showed old blood stains as well as fresh. This though was at the old school in the village, not the new school just outside the village.

My Sanda Sifu prefers trees, I know I have joked about that here on MT but that is really what he uses. And I still can't get myself to practice elbow strikes on a tree.

The more I hear about the "new" Chen Village the less happy I get. They are also building rather large hotels near there or are soon to build them to accommodate the westerns that want to train Chen (I could go further here but it would be a rant that would upset a few).... sounds like it is going the route of Shaolin.

I know Chen Zhenglei has schools outside of and away form Chen Village these days and I have heard good things but I have no first hand knowledge of them.

I hear Chen Xiaowang does still; on occasion teach apps as does Chen Zhenglie and Chen Bing is apparently real big on fighting. And then there is Ren Guangyi too I have heard he is rather serious about Chen style and when I talked to him he sounded as if he was, I may just have to go check his school out one of these days.

Yep... that'd be the size of it. Now the one thing I will say is at least at the schools in Dengfeng, the kids do hit & kicks pads on a regular basis, but if they want to go sanshou, that's all they do. If they don't, then do do forms & supply monks for the shows at Shaolin.

There is another guy somewhere in China, I posted a link awhile back, that claims to be teaching and training REAL fighting Shaolin and form the clips I saw he may just be but he is not associated with the temple if I understand correctly.
 
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DocWard

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Thanks for all the help guys. I think I am at least a little better educated now.

I don't know how much punching my daughter wants to do, particularly with unprotected hands. Aside from the aesthetic factor of the hands, she enjoys guitar and piano, and plays clarinet in band.
 

Xue Sheng

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Thanks for all the help guys. I think I am at least a little better educated now.

I don't know how much punching my daughter wants to do, particularly with unprotected hands. Aside from the aesthetic factor of the hands, she enjoys guitar and piano, and plays clarinet in band.

I am not sure how much strike trainin you are going to get in the US without had protection. What we have been discussing is more how they train and trained in China or that done by a VERY traditional CMA Sifu.

And the Sanda/Sanshou I have been training is police/military not sport and the majority of Sanshou training with Wushu is sport and there WILL be hand protection.
 
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DocWard

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I am not sure how much strike trainin you are going to get in the US without had protection. What we have been discussing is more how they train and trained in China or that done by a VERY traditional CMA Sifu.

And the Sanda/Sanshou I have been training is police/military not sport and the majority of Sanshou training with Wushu is sport and there WILL be hand protection.

I had assumed as much, I should have let you know I was being a little facetious, sorry. I should say though, that I am convinced that my punching things for years in Kenpo before trying to learn guitar has made it a bigger challenge than it would have been otherwise.

I do want her to have some training in striking, though. I just want her to be careful in doing so.
 

Xue Sheng

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I had assumed as much, I should have let you know I was being a little facetious, sorry. I should say though, that I am convinced that my punching things for years in Kenpo before trying to learn guitar has made it a bigger challenge than it would have been otherwise.

I do want her to have some training in striking, though. I just want her to be careful in doing so.

I use to play guitar and still dabble so I understand.

There are a lot of palm strikes in CMA (depending on style) and that may alleviate some of the problem and if it is Modern Wushu in the US it is likely there will be no strike training what-so-ever
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Nice thread. Most importantly have her in something that she is interested in and enjoys.
icon14.gif
 

clfsean

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I use to play guitar and still dabble so I understand.

There are a lot of palm strikes in CMA (depending on style) and that may alleviate some of the problem and if it is Modern Wushu in the US it is likely there will be no strike training what-so-ever

Same here regarding guitar.

Also another thing to keep in mind, most CMA schools will keep a supply of dit da jow on hand for use before & after training to help reduce the wear & tear on the hands, arms, legs & feet.
 
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DocWard

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Nice thread. Most importantly have her in something that she is interested in and enjoys.
icon14.gif

She is the one who has expressed an interest in it, so we will see how it goes.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is "dit da jow?"
 

Flying Crane

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Pardon my ignorance, but what is "dit da jow?"

It is a linament commonly used in Chinese martial arts schools to help heal the bruising and trauma that happens due to training. If you are doing drills that include body-contact, such as striking forearms to forearms to build conditioning, this leads to bruising. Also, striking heavy bags, or sand bags or wooden dummies and other types of impact training/conditioning can lead to bruising and whatnot. So before and after this kind of training, the linament is rubbed into the arms and hands and it helps them to heal more quickly and completely after the training, and contributes to effective conditioning for striking. It also helps to prevent permanent injuries from the impact training. If you do it wrong, or without good linament and you are doing heavy impact training, you can get gradual injuries that damage your hands and stuff, arthritis and even nerve damage if you are really doing it wrong.

Traditionally, the teacher would have his own recipe and would make it himself from medicinal herbs and whatnot, based on Chinese medicine. Often, these recipes were held as a family secret and only passed on to the most trustworthy students. Not as many people have continued to do this, but dit da jow is available commercially, if you know where to look for it.

It isn't all the same, tho. Some of the commercial stuff isn't as good as others, so it's good to get a recommendation from someone that you trust as to who sells or makes good stuff. I've had allergic reactions to some formulas, I had a rash break out on my arms after rubbing it in. That doesn't necessarily mean it isn't good jow, it just means there is something in the recipe that I am allergic to, so I can't use that particular one.
 

JadeDragon3

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For a good dit da jow try this simple but effective one:

one fifth of cheap whiskey
two ounces of Bai Zhi (angelica root)
two ounces of Xue Jie (dragons blood)
three ounces of Ru Xiang (frankincense)
three ounces of Mo Yao (myhrr)
two ounces of pseudogensing

Mix all in with the whiskeyin a glass container. Let stand for one month. Shake vigerously every day. Keep in a cool place out of the sunlight.

This is good for bruises, swelling, and mild pain. This dit da jow has a slight cooling effect.
 
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