Question about Legitimacy of What I Learned

Monkey Turned Wolf

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To answer this question. No, not really. They said it was for self-defense but it was like, stand here and I'm going to show you how the technique is applied. There was no non-compliant application of the technique.

From all the back and forth going on here. There are two schools of thought regarding legitimacy.
1. The person is more concerned with how it is applied and whether will it work in a fight
2. The other is regarding the history of the martial art and the techniques taught.

This is my viewpoint. When I was younger it was about could this help me in a fight. Now that I am older and in all honesty in my almost 30 years after taking Kung Fu, I have never once been in a fight or even been in a situation where I would get into one. So for me, it comes down to this. Legitimacy for me is the following:

1. Was what was taught correct?
2. Was the person of said rank, knowledgeable enough to even teach at that rank, or were they pulling it out of their ***?
3. Their integrity, are they teaching it with the intent of helping someone or is it just for the money?

I know in regards to what I said about not ever getting into a fight as I got older, I guess it could happen one day but what are honestly the chances if it hasn't happened in almost 30 years? Sure, I got into fights when I was younger, but I'm 48 now and I've grown up since then and there are other ways to resolve conflict.

The point I am trying to make is if a person isn't qualified to teach someone, should they be teaching it? In regards to Olaf Simon, he wasn't fully qualified to teach what he was teaching. I don't care that he was a skilled fighter. Yes, he learned some Kenpo, and the stuff he learned, he could teach, it was the other stuff that he was pretty much pulling out of his *** and passing it off as higher levels of Kenpo.
In this regard, I think the important thing is to understand what you want to gain from martial arts, and then use the same logic (did I learn X? Can I verify that?) to it, to decide if it was legitimate for your purposes. If your goal was to learn a martial art of a specific lineage, or continue a cultural tradition, or anything else that requires he learned and was authorized to teach in a specific lineage(all of which are legitimate reasons to learn)...it sounds like you already know your answer.
 

isshinryuronin

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If one is not interested in combat,

- timing,
- opportunity,

will have no meaning to him.
Yes, these two skills (which work hand in hand) especially can only be developed through sparring experience, along with courage under fire. These are the things that make MA actually work.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Yes, these two skills (which work hand in hand) especially can only be developed through sparring experience, along with courage under fire. These are the things that make MA actually work.
Also "angle" won't have meaning. The best attacking angle is when your both feet line up with your opponent's leading foot. If your opponent doesn't exist, there is no reference point.

Just wonder how long the Kempo history has. Does all Kempo teachers teach their student the Kempo history? My long fist and Chinese wrestling teachers had never taught me any Chinese MA history.
 

JowGaWolf

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It's hard for me to understand why someone wants to learn MA and not interest in combat.
I feel the same way. If I want to benefit my health, then the combat part becomes important. Learning how to fight doesn't mean that I'll automatically just go out and start fights. I had a classmate who thought that learning how to spar was a waste of time and that he only wanted to do kung fu for health. One day after many years he decided to try sparring. He was surprised at how much of a cardio was involved. He used other physical activities that required cardio but none of them were as demanding as that one-minute sparring session. He wanted to do more sparring after that for the exercise side of it, but Thursdays were bad because his daughter had dance and his son did something else as well.

The benefit to the combat side is also mental. You begin to feel less scared of the world.
 

JowGaWolf

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n MA, I don't care about whether one can demonstrate a form, or know the history
This is equally as important. The people who make a plane don't know how to fly the plane but they knowledge that they have is vital. The people who know techniques and forms are important because people who care about application often don't want to learn a lot of forms in the first place. Look at how much time I spent digging deep into Jow Ga beginning form. Had I cared more about forms and history, then I would have been able to be a Sifu. Once I learn how to use all the techniques in the forms that I know. I will reach out to someone who only cares about forms and history to learn new techniques and a new form.

The downside is that I probably have to figure out the technique myself, but I'm fine with that. IT's not the first time I had to do something like that.
 
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MacHudde

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I think all the aspects of a martial are important, history, philosophy, technique, application, sparring, etc... However, I don't think one should be looked down upon for the order of importance they place on each aspect. Everyone has a right to their opinion. I just think that it is better to learn and understand someone else's point of view on a topic than to be closed-minded about it. Maybe that is just the Stoic in me.

I am glad we can have a civil discussion on this topic without the need for bickering and name-calling like there are on other forums.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The benefit to the combat side is also mental. You begin to feel less scared of the world.
The day that you realize that you can be a bad guy too, bad guys won't scare you anymore.

One night I walked in a dark alley in Rio De Janeiro Brazil, a guy who leaned his back against the street wall. He looked at my watch and then looked at me (I had a $165 Seiko watch on my wrist), he then turned his head away. Next night I stood at exactly the same spot with my back against the street wall. I had blue jean and leather jacket (a long hair Chinaman). All street people tried to walk on the other side of the street. That night experience had changed my mind about bad guy. Why should I be afraid of bad guy if I can be bad guy myself? My students always told me that I was the person they didn't want to meet in a dark alley.

One day I met the person who said that he was going to kill me next time we met. I walked toward him and said, "You said you wanted to kill me. Let's settle this once for all right now." He said, "John, loot at how small I'm and how big you are. How can you take advantage on me." I turned my head and left. For the rest of his life, he tried to run away from me. I assume I was considered as a bad guy that day.
 
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Hot Lunch

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However, I don't think one should be looked down upon for the order of importance they place on each aspect.
This, right here. Personally, I don't need martial arts for fighting. I've held my own just fine before I took up martial arts, and I still could a year from now if I stopped training today. Even if I couldn't, I wouldn't take up martial arts for that reason. If the need to fight only arose once every five or six years, I'm not going to be training four times a week (if I didn't enjoy it) just so I can "win."
 

Kung Fu Wang

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No, you weren't the bad guy. My guess is that you were just willing to take things beyond where he really wanted to take things.
It's stupid to say, "I'll kill you next time we meet." When someone pretends he is a bad guy, what if his opponent is truly a bad guy.

A: I'll kill you next time we meet.
B: The person who said that to me last time, grass has grown fully on his tomb.

A: I'll kill you next time we meet.
B: you may say that if you can leave here alive today.
 
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MacHudde

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In my country as in most, uttering death threats is a criminal charge. IMO it's always better to try and de-escalate the situation than to engage in it. Also keep in mind, if you engage someone, you don't know if they have a gun. I'd rather not take that chance.
 

JowGaWolf

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It's stupid to say, "I'll kill you next time we meet." When someone pretends he is a bad guy, what if his opponent is truly a bad guy.
I agree, which is why I don't say things like that. lol. Some people don't understand that certain things aren't taken lightly.

In my country as in most, uttering death threats is a criminal charge.
Where I grew up. No one cared about this. Threats were given anyway. Evne if you report it, you may still find yourself dead. Especially if you have no proof that your life was threatened. The last time I was in that position, the police told me the to my face that it's better to be "tried by 12 than to be carried by 6." So much for me reporting that word was out on the street that someone was going to attack me.

The people who care about it being a criminal charge are the same people giving the threats. Some school shootings start off like that and that criminal charge meant nothing to them.

IMO it's always better to try and de-escalate the situation than to engage in it.
Some people don't care about this either.

Also keep in mind, if you engage someone, you don't know if they have a gun. I'd rather not take that chance.
Very true. Unfortunately, a lot of people in the US get shot even if they don't engage with the person makng the threat. There was a recent shooting in the US where engagement would have been the better course. Because there wasn't any, the shooter's mom will be spending time in prison.

The reality is different depending on where you live. Some places are worse than others. Where I live now has fewer worries than when I lived in Baltimore. There was a TV show about Baltimore called "The Wire." People used to ask me if Baltimore really like the TV. My answer was, It's worse.

For example, when someone was out to kill someone, the streets would be empty like a ghost town. I would have to keep kids in the Youth Development Center, which was a death trap because there was only one way end and one way out. My first time experiencing this was when the staff at the building told me to hurry up and get inside the building because there was going to be shooting. I never saw kids running like in this clip. People were off the street before long before the gunman came. After that I learned. When the streets were clear, it meant someone was looking for someone to shoot. After a while it just became a norm. Something that I had to navigate. One day rumor was out that osmeone was coming to shoot me and my coworker. My coworker made a call and 8 cars rolled up with at least 2 people in the care armed. They came to protect my coworker who was the youngest of that crew. To this day I've never seen anything like that. They escorted my coworker home and that was that. I was left there by myself with no one to call lol. De-escalation sometimes mean rolling up in 8 cars with 16 guns lol. I told my cousin about it, and he ask me if I need them to bring the van. That shocked me because I knew what he meant, and I didn't want to pull any of my family members into it. I have no idea where I would de-escalate 8 cars of people willing to go all out.
 

isshinryuronin

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Some people don't understand that certain things aren't taken lightly.
This reminds me of an eye-opening experience. As a very young man (teaching at a Kenpo school in California) I dated a Sicilian girl whose big brother was recently released from San Quentin Prison (a very serious place where he was the state prison middle weight boxing champion). As we were friendly, I mentioned in passing that a fellow was causing me some problem. Without batting an eye, he asked me, "Where does he live?"

The implication of that question swept over me like a dark cloud. It was then I realized that some people live in a different world and live by a different code where "certain things aren't taken lightly."
 
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MacHudde

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That is a world I have never been exposed to and I hope I never have to experience that world. I know people who have been exposed to stuff like that and more. My brother-in-law serves in the Canadian Army and he's done two tours in Afghanistan and I know he's experienced stuff, he will not talk about.
 
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