Qi gong and Wing Chun

[bully]

Don't see much on here about it but at that KF school one of our lessons consisted of Qi Gong, Chi Kung or whatever you want to call it.
Do you actively use it in your WC? if so how? In SLT during 3 prayers to Buddha?

Have been doing a bit of reading about it and it seems that if you want to learn the full potential/power in WC (maybe all CMA) you need Chi gong.

Now me being a sceptic and all about mysterious powers and energys, I am not 100% sure what to believe. You guys who are experienced and have lots of power (unlike me) is it chi or is it basic physics and structure related?

It has been said (somewhere on the net) that Ip Man used to put wet paper sheets on his shoulders during SLT and spend an hour on the form, drying the sheets in the process. Don't even know if this is true or not, and me being a sceptic, I think that that a bit of wet paper on my shoulders may dry after an hour!! ;-) I am a "larger person" so in fairness I create a lot of heat when I do any physical activity so may be able to power a small towns electricity needs...may try the paper drying though!! So was Ip man practicing Chi Gong??

And please dont take offence that I am questioning it, I am very interested. There is certainly something when a 10 stone Chinese guy stands on 1 leg and asks me to dump him on the floor. No chance, he was just laughing at me and telling me to try harder. Was he using structure and training or chi or all 3?

I hope some of the other CMA guys/Tai chi guys may stop in to educate me about this.

 

[cwk]

I think there's a thread on this already but I'll answer anyway mate.
For me, doing qigong before training helps me to get focused and I get to a deeper level of relaxation. Nothing mystical from my point of view but just nice meditative exercise.
Others who are more into the internal side may see things differently.

 

[mook jong man]

It's already built into the the Sil Lum Tao form , but Tsui Seung Tin calls it "Nim Lik".
Which if I remember correctly means thought force or mind force.

When you have reached the level of attaining "Nim Lik" it means that you can generate effortless power in attack and defence whilst staying completely relaxed without resorting to the use of strength.
He believes the only way to cultivate this type of force is the proper practice of the SLT form.

That means being completely relaxed except for a slight contraction of the anal sphincter called Tei Gong , this makes the stance solid by locking the upper and lower halves together and is required for the cultivation of "Nim Lik"

Try to straighten the spine like you are being pulled up by the top of your head.
The mind must be completely focused on the task at hand , initiating each movement from the elbow.

He then advocates that you infuse the spine with the "Spirit" which basically means that you visualise an energy travelling all the way up your spine to the top of your head and back out into the limb you are moving.

It's important to stay relaxed as "Nim Lik" will not flow through tense muscles.
It takes many years of training to develop this type of force , but an early indicator that you maybe on the right track is that you might occasionally get a feeling of warmth travelling down your arm as you do the form.

That and a increasing ability to throw larger people around in Chi Sau without resorting to brute strength.
Indeed one of the functions of the Bil Gee form is to be able to train you to eventually drive this force out to your fingertips

 

[Rion]

I thought Qi Gong was more to do with one's breathing while doing the movements or am I mistaken?

 

[MacPedro]

He then advocates that you infuse the spine with the "Spirit" which basically means that you visualise an energy travelling all the way up your spine to the top of your head and back out into the limb you are moving.

MJM,
this type of visualization is a powerful tool that preoccupies the conscious mind and facilitates your wills goal. As long as you understand it properly and don't get delusional. I'm prone to the odd delusion myself, very odd sometimes.

I don't know if it's VT but I often imagine my centre of gravity to be a rotating ball of glowing plasma 8" in front of my dan tien. You can spin it and slingshot punches round it like a satellite getting extra speed from the sun. Your Wu Sau arm is like a counter-balance slow mass helping to fling the fist out.... should I call the happy wagon now? Has the real ultimate power of Chun gone to my head

Anybody else employ visualization, what do you see, don't be shy. All the sport psychologists are giving it a thumbs up.
Best Wishes,
Pedro

 

[mook jong man]

For pivoting you are better off visualising the glowing ball is inside of you as you rotate.
With punching you just visualise expanding the angle of your arm.

To be able to pump force out into your arms so that you can maintain the angles while under heavy load , while still staying relaxed , you hold your arms out in front of you imagining that you are holding a large inflatable beachball in front of your chest.
For fast , relaxed kicking imagine there is a hook behind your knee pulling your leg up .

 

[MacPedro]

For pivoting you are better off visualising the glowing ball is inside of you as you rotate.
With punching you just visualise expanding the angle of your arm.

To be able to pump force out into your arms so that you can maintain the angles while under heavy load , while still staying relaxed , you hold your arms out in front of you imagining that you are holding a large inflatable beachball in front of your chest.
For fast , relaxed kicking imagine there is a hook behind your knee pulling your leg up .

I'm feeling about as enriched as I can get for the moment with this one.
Thanks Mook Jong Man. This is a magic help.
Pedro

 

[tenzen]

When I was training in hop gar and taichi some years back we also learned chi gong. One of the big things was visualization. In a field, riding a river standing on turtle shells, clouds opening and dropping energy onto you. Things like that. While doing these along withh certain postures we would also visualize being surrounded by different energies with different colors doing different things. Anyway I have added this practice in with my other forms and generally every movement I make for all the martial arts I practice. It works.
With chi gong you can build a force inside you and use the force around you to give you power. Wc already has chigong in it. But you can make every movement from any art into chi gong with the right principles. Its a force that is completely necessary but unfortunately our day and time its not considered that way, at least not by everybody.

 

[Asmo]

It's already built into the the Sil Lum Tao form , but Tsui Seung Tin calls it "Nim Lik".
Which if I remember correctly means thought force or mind force.

When you have reached the level of attaining "Nim Lik" it means that you can generate effortless power in attack and defence whilst staying completely relaxed without resorting to the use of strength.
He believes the only way to cultivate this type of force is the proper practice of the SLT form.

That means being completely relaxed except for a slight contraction of the anal sphincter called Tei Gong , this makes the stance solid by locking the upper and lower halves together and is required for the cultivation of "Nim Lik"

Try to straighten the spine like you are being pulled up by the top of your head.
The mind must be completely focused on the task at hand , initiating each movement from the elbow.

He then advocates that you infuse the spine with the "Spirit" which basically means that you visualise an energy travelling all the way up your spine to the top of your head and back out into the limb you are moving.

It's important to stay relaxed as "Nim Lik" will not flow through tense muscles.
It takes many years of training to develop this type of force , but an early indicator that you maybe on the right track is that you might occasionally get a feeling of warmth travelling down your arm as you do the form.

That and a increasing ability to throw larger people around in Chi Sau without resorting to brute strength.
Indeed one of the functions of the Bil Gee form is to be able to train you to eventually drive this force out to your fingertips

I felt a feeling of warmth when I practiced SNT today and yesterday. Up until then, I never really did. You're right about Nim Lik. On his DVD (have you seen it, Mook?) he says something like 'SNT theory is about "building up an idea" or "invisible force". Some call it "Qi Gong" or "Internal Energy". or "Special Power". I call it "Force of Idea".

I believe another way to help develop Nim Lik is to visualise a tetrahedron when you perform a Tan Sau. The individual who told me this said it came from Tsui Sigung.

 

[mook jong man]

No I haven't seen his Dvd , the problem with those is that something always seems to get a little lost in the translation unfortunately.

It's information that I was told for years by my Sifu and instructors , but I was just too young and stupid and didn't really believe in it that much , and found it more exciting and fun to focus on the external aspects like sparring etc.
But as I have got older I started to realise there is a lot more to Wing Chun than what I thought there was.

Also there is the fact that it is very difficult , there are a lot of things going on at once.
Trying to keep the internal contraction activated , trying to relax , trying to maintain concentration on the elbow and focus towards the centreline.

All of this is hard enough in a stationary position and solo like SLT , but then trying to maintain it while moving in Chum Kiu or under external pressure such as in Chi Sau really kicks the difficulty level up a notch.

But as with all things it takes practice and each time it becomes a little bit easier , and every once and a while you will experience the warmth travelling down your arm , and for me a feeling of being relaxed and my body very 'unified ' in my stance.
It doesn't happen very often , but when it does you know you are heading in the right direction in your training.

 

[Asmo]

In regards to the DVD, I know what you mean. The translation I have for it (not subtitles, it's on paper) is good but I feel I would understand it better if I spoke Cantonese. It's also hard watching it and then having to refer to the paper to see what he was saying. Still helpful in a way. It's interesting to see Sigung in action.

I definitely get what you mean. I've been trying to focus on both internal and external aspects, and it is still hard to do so properly. It's interesting though. The way I see things is it's better to try to understand both than focus on one and neglect the other. It just serves to balance our art out, and make us better practitioners.

With that said, I'm no doubt certain there are excellent practitioners who choose to focus on either the internal or external sides. If that works for them, that's great. It's just how I think.

 

[MaikuB]

There's a new DVD of Tsui Sheung Tin with translations for it as well now

If you're interested, check out this facebook group

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Australian-Wing-Chun-Association/197703000029

The translations are much better than the ones for the previous DVD (it's about 36 pages) and covers the techniques in the first form.

 

[Asmo]

Oh, cool. I'll have to check it out when they get more copies.

Cheers.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Most, if not all of the feats of Fa Jing, Nim Lik or Qi Gong are a product of stable structure, timing, kinetic chain linking, breath control, stance, directional harmony, etc., which is brought about by training and mental focus.

Takes time, experience and lots of repetitions with special training and knowledgeable, qualified instructors. You might develop it after many, MANY years of training... yet the process is cut by a Teacher to less than a year or two (that is how much it took me and my students), if you train diligently.

Some of the feats can take much less time... a few weeks for some.

Thus this stuff is not hocus pocus. It is based on solid neuroscience and neuro-muscular programming of the proprioceptive neurology to support the muscle-skeletal machinery through specific drills. Explaining it won't increase skill, just like explaining the physiology of breathing won't get you to breathe any better, so I won't go into more details.

In the end, it will be hocus pocus until you start doing it yourself. It's easier than many think, yet not so easy that you can just get it by yourself. Again, diligent training with a Teacher that has the skills is key. Also, a verification system should be in place so that you can gauge your advancement and not fall for "charlatans" that say they know this and can do this. It is NOT common knowledge and it is NOT common skill.

Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado

 

[Eric_H]

Qi Gong is a very general term, no offense intended but asking if there's Qi Gong in a cma is kind of like asking if they have punches. The effectiveness, structure and intent of each punch or Qi Gong is based on the specifics of the training.

Specific to WC - in the Yip Family the only thing approaching Qi Gong I ever saw was people doing their tan sao slowly in the first section of SNT. Some folks have a crude method of Iron palm as well, which is basically just smashing your hands on stuff until they get harder. (Have fun with that when you're old.)

Yi Hei (mind intent) gets you to the foot of the mountain, and it seems like a bunch of folks on here are describing that well. However, that's not Qi Gong either - just something you need to have if you want to do Qi Gong.

 

[Domino]

It's already built into the the Sil Lum Tao form , but Tsui Seung Tin calls it "Nim Lik".

Took the words from my mouth.
We didn't even know we were doing it to begin with.

 

[tarzan]

-What Mook Jong Man said, its built in to SLT. William Cheung even wrote a whole book about how chi development is built into it.
- There is another book, "Chi Kung Practice and Power in Wing Chun Kung Fu" By Si-Fu Scott Baker that I have. Pretty in depth, though its been a few years since I read it. I got it as an Ebook and don't know if it is available in other formats.

 

[bully]

-What Mook Jong Man said, its built in to SLT. William Cheung even wrote a whole book about how chi development is built into it.
- There is another book, "Chi Kung Practice and Power in Wing Chun Kung Fu" By Si-Fu Scott Baker that I have. Pretty in depth, though its been a few years since I read it. I got it as an Ebook and don't know if it is available in other formats.

It is and I read it, it was the reason I started this thread...well one of them anyway.

I am now back at home, so will start practicing alot more and trying to concentrate (or not lol) on the Chi Kung side of our art.