Purpose of Hand Isolations from Horse Stance in Long Form #1

[rmcrobertson]

I'm glad to see the agreement about the "squeegee," quality of these blocks, which militates against their abbreviation in practice.

Sorry to have dragged the instructors into it (guess there's never any good time for that), even in response to dragging the instructors into it...one addendum; I wrote nothing about rank, or even time, only that I had a degree of teaching experience on and off the mat. And I too dislike excessive language that covers up nonsense, whether it's of that sort or of the pseudo-scientific variety.

However, I still disagree with the bit about blocks from a horse. In the first place, loading beginners with all the variations makes life very difficult for them. Much easier to teach them where the blocks go in relation to points such as the shoulder, then insist on that. As for "cramping the pectoral," etc., I've not found this to be true. To be sure, "back-up mass," is not immediately available in a horse stance, but to my way of thinking, that's fine...another example of building skills one brick at a time.

As for, "moving the shoulder more," I disagree for two reasons. First off, this establishes the basic movement of stepping/sliding to a neutral bow while blocking up much too high; if anything, the hip adjusts more than the shoulder should. Second, why "lock the shoulder?" This makes the small adjustments that get made pretty naturally pretty much imposssible; of course, then, the block will look and feel weird. It's because the block isn't built from the ground up.

I stick behind a point I've made at other times; if you can't get your hands right, look at your feet before you fiddle with your hands.

I quite agree, too, that the nature of these blocks and blocking will change over time. I simply disagree rather strongly about fiddling with basic training from the viewpoint of being more-advanced; sure, you may not need to do that stuff any more, but many do.

Thanks for the discussion, though; always useful to think back through.

 

[dcence]

I stick behind a point I've made at other times; if you can't get your hands right, look at your feet before you fiddle with your hands.

I agree. That is what I am doing -- looking at the stance to make sure the hands are in the right position and aligned with the rest of the body.

I suppose we may disagree on approach to teaching, which is fine. I don't suspect that we disagree upon the ultimate angle of the blocks position when in a neutral bow.

Just an analogy here. I have some great danes. I love 'em; my wife tolerates 'em. They are not her favorite because they wear paths in the lawn because they generally take the same path across it, which happens to be the most efficient path to get where they repeatedly go. I believe basics and their repitition are for the express purpose of engraining in a student those paths that are most efficient and effective. I have heard this called "the groove" (a Mills term). The body is made to move efficiently in certain ways as a whole. At times, I think in doing things out of a horse, we sometimes forget that the whole body needs to be in the proper alignment to get in the groove -- not just the upper half. Doing blocks in a horse reinforces movement that I feel is not really aligned with the back up mass of the whole body, and thus not in the groove. The more we practice out of the groove the less sure we are they will go there when we really need them.

But I learned out of a horse originally so I hope it isn't all bad.

Thanks for your insights

Derek

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by dcence
Hi Doc,

I really begin to worry when you and I actually agree. LOL



Functionality is the key. I also agree in Zone Blocking. However, I believe this is best accomplished by using a consistent angle of delivery and using the path created by your block, rather than using various angles of delivery (some of which have a less than structurally sound alignment). For example a proper inward block protects entire zones by using the path ("squeegee") of the entire length of your forearm.

Derek

Than I take judicial notice conceptually we absolutely agree as stated above. (It is a bit scary):asian:

 

[Fastmover]

Its great to see threads like this one...I really learn a lot from everyone! Sometimes..........no most of the time I just need to shut up and listen!

 

[Doc]

I just think it makes more sense to do so starting from a neutral as soon as possible because that is what a student will "ideally" do in a real situation.

That reminded me of when Joe Dimmick wrote his book on Sam Pai kenpo. He suggested doing a technique line with the defender "standing naturally" (or in a meditation horse as we used to), didn't make sense and suggested techniques lines should start with the defender in a neutral bow. I told him obviously there was some merit to what he was saying, but students must be able to defend themselves from all positions, particulary when there are existing techniques whose defense "require" the horse or a nutural position.

Just a thought Derek while we're on a roll. :rofl:

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by Doc
That reminded me of when Joe Dimmick wrote his book on Sam Pai kenpo. He suggested doing a technique line with the defender "standing naturally" (or in a meditation horse as we used to), didn't make sense and suggested techniques lines should start with the defender in a neutral bow. I told him obviously there was some merit to what he was saying, but students must be able to defend themselves from all positions, particulary when there are existing techniques whose defense "require" the horse or a nutural position.

Just a thought Derek while we're on a roll. :rofl:

Learning to defend yourself from different points of reference is a great point! This is something Mr Mills has pointed out as well. The neutral bow would no doubt be the ideal stance to defend from but unfortunately we might not have the opportunity to get there in time. The worst place to be should an attack come is standing in a natural stance with your hands down at your side. Maybe worse sitting in a chair or in your car! Still these points of reference need to be considered, but if I have the chance and I know the fight is on, Im getting to a neutral bow as fast as I can.
Again great point!!!

 

[dcence]

Good point, Doc.

Frequently, I like to have students attempt to mirror physically the attacker's mental attitude and the threat level, just to let them know that if you see a guy squaring up in front of you, not to just stand there. The attacker squares, the student drops a foot back. The attacker comes within contact, hands go to a position that is non-threatening, but ready, maybe just at your sides, maybe across your chest, maybe one hand across the chest, the other on the chin. What I really like is two hands up, palms out, like, "Hold on there, pal. It doesn't have to go there." Outright aggression, hands are up ready to defend or even preempt.

Hands up, palms out, saying, "let's talk about this" is a help legally, in that you attempted to defuse the situation, which I know you, Doc, often speak about. It also creates an obstacle the opponent has to get around to hit you.

But also, we need to know how to move from a vulnerable position, standing naturally, leaning against a wall, etc. in case one is a little behind the game and gets caught unawares.
I am a proponent of practicing from sitting in a chair, kneeling on the ground, laying on your back. That is a good point, Fastmover. Many techniques change when you are sitting at a table. Good basics should come together and apply regardless of what position you find yourself or your opponent(s) in.

thanks for the good string.

Derek

 

[Making the Journey]

I believe it's a preveiw of things to come but also being able to move the body while the legs are static... generating as much power as you can

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

This one is not that complicated. It shows previews to coming attractions, things left out and catagory completetion. As for standing still and doing the motion. I was told my Mr Wedlake that kenpo form are there to preserve the hystory/motion of our system as well as a few other things.