Gaseous phase of motion

[ProfessorKenpo]

Just throwing this out for thoughts on this.

1)What do you think it is?

2)When did you first learn it and when would you teach it?

3)How is it so much different fromt the solid and liquid phases?

4)When and how do you employ it?

Anything else you can think of would be appreciated, thanks in advance.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Is this for real?

 

[kenpo12]

Hey Clyde,

I remember you brought this up in a Saturday morning class a couple months ago, so I'll try to put up something remotely correct.

-In a solid state you move in a specific direction regardless off what your opponent does. You bust through anything they might have up and you basically "hard style" though them.
-In a liquid state you move around your opponent for the most part.
-In a gaseous state you take up your opponent’s space. You basically are already everywhere he wants to go, thus canceling all of his zones.

I know these could be elaborated on much more but that is my basic understanding of the above states as it has to do with kenpo.

Matt

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Wow. It is for real. Never heard of it before. Learn something new everyday.

 

[jfarnsworth]

I have always thought that Unfurling Crane was a Gaseous technique. That is just my opinion though. I base this on shuffling in with the hammer to the groin just before exploding out with the instep to the groin, the obscure vert. elbow followed by the palm heel to the chin, as the left hand checks the right shoulder. I don't know if that's exactly correct but I like the technique anyways.



Oh and B.T.W. Clyde; thanks for putting something up that we can use, learn, and talk about instead of argueing about.:asian:

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
I have always thought that Unfurling Crane was a Gaseous technique. That is just my opinion though. I base this on shuffling in with the hammer to the groin just before exploding out with the instep to the groin, the obscure vert. elbow followed by the palm heel to the chin, as the left hand checks the right shoulder. I don't know if that's exactly correct but I like the technique anyways.



Oh and B.T.W. Clyde; thanks for putting something up that we can use, learn, and talk about instead of argueing about.:asian:

Oh yea, I do love that technique as well, and it's a pretty good example of the gaseous phase, now what about the rest of the questions silly LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Just throwing this out for thoughts on this.

1)What do you think it is?

2)When did you first learn it and when would you teach it?

3)How is it so much different fromt the solid and liquid phases?

4)When and how do you employ it?

Anything else you can think of would be appreciated, thanks in advance.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

1) I think it is what Kenpo 12 said it is.

2) I just learned it when I read this.

3) In Kenpo 12's explanation you can see the differences (if his explanation is correct).

4) Personally I would WANT to employ the gaseous phase EVERYTIME I had to deal with any opponent, but I am sure there is a time and a place for it though. I will have to think about that one.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Wow. It is for real. Never heard of it before. Learn something new everyday.

OFK, I can't believe you've been around this long and not know of the three phases. Besides solid, liquid, and gas there are


1st, 2nd, 3rd person perspective

past, present, future and how they relate to techniques and forms

primitive, mechanical, & spontaneous stages of motion, what the three tiers on the flame represent

embryonic and sophisticated basics

and hundreds more

Lots of Kenpo terms that never get out are left behind. If we all spoke the same language it would be a bit easier to transfer thoughts via text instead of physical explanations. I'll be happy to explain them to anyone if they ask.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Clyde: Thanks. I'm familiar with all the other concepts you mentioned above. My Instructor split with Parker/Tracy in 1965 and I guess some of the terms never made it into our school.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
what the three tiers on the flame represent

I want to know, please, what do they represent?

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
I want to know, please, what do they represent?

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
primitive, mechanical, & spontaneous stages of motion, what the three tiers on the flame represent

That's how I took it anyways.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Axly, I'd argue that Unfurling Crane is a good example of a "liquid," technique that turns "gaseous."

And--to repeat a point Mr. Tatum sometimes makes--none of the phases are inherently superior to the others, any more than "primitive," (strictly, the word means "first") is necessarily inferior to "sophisticated." We just tend to read them as going from "lesser," to "greater."

It's partly that, as Toni still reminds me, you have to respect the level that you're at. It's partly that my experience has been that every belt rank (except for that damn blue) is exactly as difficult as every other one.

And, to harp where I keep harping, too often we confuse fancy technology with sophisticated Fechnology...as I recently discovered, have Clyde work you through Clutching Feathers, and you'll find out just how hard it can be to properly sophisticate an inward block...

 

[Michael Billings]

Robert, way to go. Hung in despite the criticism. Good job.

Rah, Rah, etc.
Oss

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Axly, I'd argue that Unfurling Crane is a good example of a "liquid," technique that turns "gaseous."

I was only pointing out the spot that I deemed necessary for the example of the gaseous state.:asian:

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Kirk
That's how I took it anyways.

Me too!

 

[kenpo12]

I feel there are alot of technique's that show examples of a gaseous state but I also feel that you can make most any technique gaseous depending on the way it's executed.
I also believe that the definition of moving in a gaseous state can change depending on the circumstance. For instance, gaseous motion is applied differently in a multi person attack scenerio than it is applied in a one on one scenerio. In a self defense scenerio or in a fight you can go from one state of motion to the next as the fight or situation dictates. As stated before one is not always better than the other, the best state is the one that fits the situation at the time.

that's my 2 cents at the moment.

Matt

 

[dcence]

Solid is what it is and will not change shape to conform to a container. Liquid seeks a level in the container. Gas fills the volume.

Take a jar and throw in a rock. The rock will sit there and only fill up the space the rock takes up, in or out of the jar. Pour in liquid and it will rise to the level of liquid proportionate to what you put in. Fill the jar with a gas, the gas will expand to fill the volume of the jar.

In relation to Kenpo, techniques can be executed in a solid state, meaning you execute the same way all the time regardless of your environment. The palm heel in Five Swords goes out at the same height regardless of your opponent's height. Your timing is the same regardless of your strikes effectiveness on your opponnet. Your opponent's reactions and peculiarities are not taken into account.

In liquid motion, your movements conform to the dimensions of your attacker. As water wraps around a solid object, your liquid motion smoothly and effortlessly takes shape to match your opponent's dimensions, features, reactions, etc. They rise to the level or sink to the level necessary to optimize your motion. Tailoring, fitting, contouring, contour confinement, etc. apply here. But liquid does not expand. The parts of the equation formula that might apply would be regulating, deleting, anything that alters the prescribed sequence to match your opponent and take his reactions into account.

In a gaseous state, your moves can be expanded beyond the liquid form to serve additional functions such as compounding. For example in a single attack situation, the palm heel in Five Swords might strike the face and then extend to a finger thrust to the eyes as his head whips back, then rip down with a claw. Your right hand chambering may turn into a back elbow or a back hammerfist to hit the guy behind you. Your moves expand to fill the space given to you in all three dimensions. What would otherwise be deemed wasted motion may become economic motion if your larger motion actually hits another target or another opponent. Suffixing, inserting -- anything that expands a technique beyond what is prescribed.

When do you learn it? On the first punch where the opposite hand chambers to the hip, as it is executing a back elbow. I tell people to think of it as such so that they will execute the opposing force with as much effort and focus as the forward motion.

Sometimes, gaseous motion is less something you do, but more a way you analyze the move(s) and the context in which it can be used.

I disagree that one form is not practically superior than the other. Gaseous is more functional than liquid or solid. The only time solid might be better is when you are learning a new specific technique sequence or practicing by yourself; you won't want to move like a gas because you have no boundaries -- no jar to fill.

Solid movement is to know how, Liquid is knowing why, when and where. Gas is knowing there is more.

To say one technique or another is gaseous, another is liquid and another is solid, is missing the point. Any technique, move can be executed in a solid, liquid or gaseous state, from Delayed Sword to whatever, from a punch to a kick.

If I execute even the mass attack techniques exactly as prescribed without making necessary adjustments I am still moving in the solid state.

That is the way I look at it. There are people that know a lot more than I do, so take my opinion for the worth of what was paid for it.

Derek

 

[Michael Billings]

I like the way you have described the 3 States of Motion in a technique.

The only thing I would add is that paths of motion, by becoming more economical, may find additional targets, minor moves, reduce wasted motion, and in-fact, find new methods of execution that fill the available space between you and an opponent, limiting or eliminating "Dead Space".

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by dcence
Derek

Sir,
Thanks for a fine example.:asian:

 

[clapping_tiger]

Originally posted by dcence
Sometimes, gaseous motion is less something you do, but more a way you analyze the move(s) and the context in which it can be used.

I disagree that one form is not practically superior than the other. Gaseous is more functional than liquid or solid. The only time solid might be better is when you are learning a new specific technique sequence or practicing by yourself; you won't want to move like a gas because you have no boundaries -- no jar to fill.

Solid movement is to know how, Liquid is knowing why, when and where. Gas is knowing there is more.


Derek

Basically, this was the gist of what I was going to say, but you explained it much better and went into a lot more detail than I could have.
Salute :asian: