Ptkd?

[TKDTony2179]

Practical Taekwondo. I have notice that there is a combat hapkido out there and it looks ok but what ever happen to taekwondo? Most of the basic kicks I have seen can be used in self-defense and including hand strikes but I have notice that a lot of TKD is sport. Not just the WTF but even the ITF seems to have a spin on the sport side of TKD. It seems like TKD only teaches mid range to long range fighting to which most people only like the long range.

Now when I say practical I mean like close range and mid range techiques that you see in Krav maga. I mean don't get me wrong. I see krav maga as a good combat art and it works well with it's training method (which makes it works). I even watch a video on youtube once about krav maga street self-defense and a lot of hand strikes and elbows was pretty much in my TKD. Which made me say why would I train in krav maga unless I wanted to learn gun disarm and knife disarm. TKD have the strikes down.

I pretty much see TKD lacking real world combat skills now because of the kicking that everyone loves so much. What happen to the way of the hand and foot? As we go up in rank (1st dan - 9dan) are we not suppose to train the untrain? Knees, elbows, and any other close range techs?

What is your thoughts on TKD being taught as a combat art and not just a martial art that you just teach kids and few select parents?
Are there different version of TKD? Military, sport, and suvillan?

How can we change the art back into a killing art if needed?
How can we kill the flash and get back to the real deal?
Should low kicks and sweeps be taught again from a real perspective?

 

[Gnarlie]

Practical Taekwondo. I have notice that there is a combat hapkido out there and it looks ok but what ever happen to taekwondo? Most of the basic kicks I have seen can be used in self-defense and including hand strikes but I have notice that a lot of TKD is sport. Not just the WTF but even the ITF seems to have a spin on the sport side of TKD. It seems like TKD only teaches mid range to long range fighting to which most people only like the long range.

My experience is different. We deal with close medium and long range, and application of and development of effective technique is largely up to the student to take ownership of, especially beyond 1st Dan. It is what you make it.

Now when I say practical I mean like close range and mid range techiques that you see in Krav maga. I mean don't get me wrong. I see krav maga as a good combat art and it works well with it's training method (which makes it works). I even watch a video on youtube once about krav maga street self-defense and a lot of hand strikes and elbows was pretty much in my TKD. Which made me say why would I train in krav maga unless I wanted to learn gun disarm and knife disarm. TKD have the strikes down.

Gun and knife disarm are part of TKD and in my experience there's nothing you'll get from krav that you can't get from TKD.

I pretty much see TKD lacking real world combat skills now because of the kicking that everyone loves so much. What happen to the way of the hand and foot?

There are more hand techniques than kicks in TKD. If you don't practice all ranges and all hand techniques, then it's you lacking real world combat skills, not TKD.

As we go up in rank (1st dan - 9dan) are we not suppose to train the untrain? Knees, elbows, and any other close range techs?

As we go up in rank we focus on physical, mental, then spiritual training. What you do beyond learning the new poomsae is up to you. Own your progress.

What is your thoughts on TKD being taught as a combat art and not just a martial art that you just teach kids and few select parents?

That's what we have blackbelt classes for, and the rudiments of combat are dealt with from white belt on.

Are there different version of TKD? Military, sport, and suvillan?

No, TKD is TKD. There are a lot of different organisations who like to sell their product differently but essentially it's all one thing.

How can we change the art back into a killing art if needed?

Who are you planning on killing? Or is this just a macho thing? There are plenty of potentially lethal techniques in TKD if you know where to look and how to do them properly.

How can we kill the flash and get back to the real deal?

The real deal never left, you just need to know how to read the manual. The flash is for fun. Isn't fun a reason why this is a hobby for a lot of people? Because it makes them happy?

Should low kicks and sweeps be taught again from a real perspective?

They never left either. I've just come off of a 3 day seminar where low kicks and sweeps were very much taught. Why don't you ask your instructor these questions.


Gnarlie

 

[dancingalone]

I won't make too many friends with this answer but....

Schools like that still exist but they're harder to find because of the usual supply/demand issues also found in karate, kung fu, etc. My opinion is that the number of people looking for this type of training has dwindled relative to the people looking for a fun martial-themed workout, so it is quite hard to operate a profitable school that teaches ONLY the combat side of things.

I live in a large metropolitan area and I'm pretty connected locally in the martial art scene. IMO, there are no commercially operated schools of ANY style that train people specifically only for self-defense. There are ample kiddy karoty/TKD/TSD studios. We do have our share of BJJ/MMA schools and camps, but realize that's also not SD either. And of course, we have the Krav Maga centers, which are mostly physical fitness oriented.

You pretty much have to look in small private training situations like garage dojos and groups that meet in the part to experience training suited for adults, containing a high level of physical contact with an intent to develop fighting skills contextual outside of the ring or the mats. Either that or you wait for the occasional CQC seminar to come to town or you take up a career as a law enforcement officer where such training can come more readily for you. I do think some styles haven't commercialized as much, but unfortunately TKD isn't one of them.

It is what it is and this has been true in my opinion for decades. When I was a younger man, I moved all around the country looking for what I termed as 'authentic' martial arts back then. I imagine in the intervening years, it's only become harder to find instead of easier.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Just last night we were working on elbows and leg kicks as a response to an attack.

 

[Manny]

I won't make too many friends with this answer but....

Schools like that still exist but they're harder to find because of the usual supply/demand issues also found in karate, kung fu, etc. My opinion is that the number of people looking for this type of training has dwindled relative to the people looking for a fun martial-themed workout, so it is quite hard to operate a profitable school that teaches ONLY the combat side of things.

I live in a large metropolitan area and I'm pretty connected locally in the martial art scene. IMO, there are no commercially operated schools of ANY style that train people specifically only for self-defense. There are ample kiddy karoty/TKD/TSD studios. We do have our share of BJJ/MMA schools and camps, but realize that's also not SD either. And of course, we have the Krav Maga centers, which are mostly physical fitness oriented.

You pretty much have to look in small private training situations like garage dojos and groups that meet in the part to experience training suited for adults, containing a high level of physical contact with an intent to develop fighting skills contextual outside of the ring or the mats. Either that or you wait for the occasional CQC seminar to come to town or you take up a career as a law enforcement officer where such training can come more readily for you. I do think some styles haven't commercialized as much, but unfortunately TKD isn't one of them.

It is what it is and this has been true in my opinion for decades. When I was a younger man, I moved all around the country looking for what I termed as 'authentic' martial arts back then. I imagine in the intervening years, it's only become harder to find instead of easier.

I agree. The majority od dojos/dojangs karate/martial arts studios focus in a sport/healthy way of doing the martial arts, please take note we are not warriors or soldiers who need to learn how to kill enemies, we are regular people who work to suport our families so there is no need to learn how to kill people around with some kind of mortal techniques.

Almost in every TKD dojang the trainining is designed as a way of gaing health in a sport way or a sport martial art AND the real hard stuff is leaved to the end. Tht's the way it is.

Over the years I've been in diferent dojos/sojangs learning diferent martial arts and I've been seen the same thing in evry dojo, for example talking about karate do, the regular class is as sporty as the tkd class even I have noticed some techs that are ridiculus and are worthless in the streets, karate ka is programed to the one blow one death but many of the hand techs taught in karate dojos are silly.

I am trying as some others here to revert a little the sporty/martial art thing trying to do my class more comabat ready than sport ready, it's not easy cause: a) students are so softh this days, simple they are not confortable been kicked or punched or trowed b) they want to do a nice work out to be in shape and.

I know there will be very small dojos that focus in self defense solely but these dojos usually only have three to five students and are not part of a large organization or federation and these dojos does not live of the income of such small number of students.

Manny

 

[dancingalone]

... I've been seen the same thing in evry dojo, for example talking about karate do, the regular class is as sporty as the tkd class even I have noticed some techs that are ridiculus and are worthless in the streets, karate ka is programed to the one blow one death but many of the hand techs taught in karate dojos are silly.

I would add that Ikken Hissatsu, oftenly translated as One Strike, One Kill, is more of a Japanese karate idea, really Shotokan to be exact, though I have heard some Wado people say the same lines. Okinawan karate styles generally don't espouse the concept unless the sensei has been greatly influenced in that direction for whatever reason.

As for silly hand techniques... indeed a lot of the 'archaic' hand techniques appear to be without worth if they are not practiced for the situations for which they are meant. Kinda like some people teaching a ridgehand as a scoring technique against the side of the head in point sparring matches. It's silliness at the highest, though most students will never realize it since their hand pads protect them against the consequence of their 'lore'.

I am trying as some others here to revert a little the sporty/martial art thing trying to do my class more comabat ready than sport ready, it's not easy cause: a) students are so softh this days, simple they are not confortable been kicked or punched or trowed b) they want to do a nice work out to be in shape and.

The majority of the students at my dojang are children. By and large, they find hosinsul practice boring compared to sparring, much less a fuller study of how to systematically attack a person's anatomical basis to attack you. Moreover, many of their parents would be horrified to see their young ones practice regularly what it would take to develop real fighting skill. An occasional class to remind them what martial arts can be is generally appreciated, but consistent, results-driven instruction into what is after all a killing method? Well... It is what it is.

I know there will be very small dojos that focus in self defense solely but these dojos usually only have three to five students and are not part of a large organization or federation and these dojos does not live of the income of such small number of students.

It can also work if you have the school within a school concept. Not everyone needs to learn and practice the same stuff. Indeed, it's quite apparent not everyone wants to, even when they are exposed to other material and know that it is out there to explore if they want.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Practical Taekwondo. I have notice that there is a combat hapkido out there and it looks ok but what ever happen to taekwondo? Most of the basic kicks I have seen can be used in self-defense and including hand strikes but I have notice that a lot of TKD is sport. Not just the WTF but even the ITF seems to have a spin on the sport side of TKD. It seems like TKD only teaches mid range to long range fighting to which most people only like the long range.

I will let the WTF'ers here speak for themselves but I will say that I know several people who have either coached competitors in the ITF World Championships or who have competed in them themselves. They all have a very good background in the traditional side of Taekwon-Do, by which I mean the self-defense oriented side. They are very effective fighters not only at long and mid range but also at short range and against people who are armed. While a competitive free-sparring match isn't the same thing as defending oneself on the street there are some overlapping areas of skill. And being good at one doesn't mean you're going to be bad at the other.

Now when I say practical I mean like close range and mid range techiques that you see in Krav maga. I mean don't get me wrong. I see krav maga as a good combat art and it works well with it's training method (which makes it works). I even watch a video on youtube once about krav maga street self-defense and a lot of hand strikes and elbows was pretty much in my TKD. Which made me say why would I train in krav maga unless I wanted to learn gun disarm and knife disarm. TKD have the strikes down.

You've kind of hit on the main issue here, I think. A lot of what makes a technique effective is the training one puts into it. If you want to learn to defend against a knife or gun you could take Krav Maga, or you could just train better in Taekwon-Do which has a variety of elbow, knee, joint locking, etc. techniques. All you have to do is train them.

I pretty much see TKD lacking real world combat skills now because of the kicking that everyone loves so much. What happen to the way of the hand and foot? As we go up in rank (1st dan - 9dan) are we not suppose to train the untrain? Knees, elbows, and any other close range techs?

Technically, Taekwon-Do it "the way of the foot and the hand" not vice versa, as you stated. Interestingly, the popularity of kicking techniques is demonstrated right in the name of the art; it's the aspect that comes first while hand techniques come in second. Kicks can be very effective in self-defense scenarios. But if you're worried about close in techniques I suggest you train in the use of knee strikes (which are classified as kicks in the ITF), elbows (which comprise both strikes and thrusts in the ITF), sweeps (again, classified as kicks), and foot tackling (tripping; and they are quite effective), crescent punches, upset punches, upward punches, turning punches, angle punches, etc.

All of these techniques are used in close range. There's no lack of techniques for what you're looking for, there's simply a lack of knowledge about them. My instructors train them on a regular basis at their school. I am sure others do, too.

What is your thoughts on TKD being taught as a combat art and not just a martial art that you just teach kids and few select parents?

I'm not really sure about the distinction you're making between a "combat" art and a "martial" art since martial means military and that would at least imply being about combat. If you're using "martial" as an adjective to describe what is taught to kids and saying that it's ineffective for self-defense then I'd suggest a new term.

Are there different version of TKD? Military, sport, and suvillan?

Depends on who you ask. IMHO, it would be more correct to say there are different intensities of training in the same art.

How can we change the art back into a killing art if needed?

We don't need to change the art. What needs to change is the way in which people train in it.

How can we kill the flash and get back to the real deal?

What's one man's flash is another man's bread and butter technique. I know plenty of people whose reverse hooking kick I would want to avoid at all costs, for example.

Should low kicks and sweeps be taught again from a real perspective?

Again? They still are, it just happens to not be at the schools you're familiar with, apparently. While there is some variety even within organizations part of the reason why organizations exist is to have a set standard about what is taught and how. If you're not getting the training you think is necessary at your school privately talk to your instructor about it and see what he has to say. If you're not satisfied with the answer you might consider seeking out a new school within the same organization. If you can't find what you're looking for within your organization you might consider looking for one that focuses more on a traditional/self-defense oriented approach.

If you're suggesting we somehow get a global standard across all organizations wherein Taekwon-Do is taught primarily for self-defense then I'd suggest that is simply not going to happen. Too many people aren't interested in doing so.

Pax,

Chris

 

[TKDTony2179]

Yes, there are a lot of hand techs in the tuls but it seems that over all focus is learning the kicks since people are less accurate with feet than are hands. Maybe my blackbelt class lacks that part since in our area the blackbelts tend to fad away around 2nd degree. Even at camp it seems like we still focus on sparring than CQC. As I am going up rank I am trying to explore and train in my undevelop close range skills. Seems like some schools really don't teach low kicks and sweeps and how I know this is because of other non tkd artist.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Practical Taekwondo. I have notice that there is a combat hapkido out there and it looks ok but what ever happen to taekwondo?

Taekwondo, for the most part, became a business that used sport as its platform. That is where the money is at. But Hapkido is going the same route unfortunately as you can be a 9yr old 3rd Dan in Hapkido in Korea.

However, there are some circles of Taekwondo that don't cater to the dollar. They go by a multitude of different labels such Practical TKD, Combat TKD, Applied TKD...or in our case, Kong Soo Do. They train with an entirely different methodology using gross motor skills, flinch response, O.O.D.A. loop etc to teach locks, throws, sweeps, chokes, cavity pressing, disarms (real disarms not the stuff taught in 99.9% of martial art schools) as well as improvised weapons, avoidance, escape and evasion and de-escalation. I can't speak for all 'combat' arts that use TKD as a platform (or part of it) but I can speak for mine.

Most of the basic kicks I have seen can be used in self-defense...

Can they? What is your background in SD? How many kicks, and of what type have you seen in a real world attack by a determined attacker or against a determined attacker?

Not just the WTF but even the ITF seems to have a spin on the sport side of TKD. It seems like TKD only teaches mid range to long range fighting to which most people only like the long range.

An instructor can only teach what they themselves have been taught. If what they've been taught is only sport-applicable then they aren't qualified to teach it from a self defense perspective. They may advertise it as viable for SD, but that is intellectual dishonesty and detrimental to their student base.

Which made me say why would I train in krav maga unless I wanted to learn gun disarm and knife disarm

KM is an excellent combative system (I'm an instructor in KM), but don't put too much on their disarms as there are much better systems available though they aren't as 'out' there for the martial artist as they are for some military and/or L.E. For example, I teach the Boatman system which has been adopted by many elements in the military as well as L.E. You're not going to get this sort of training at the average Dojang which is a shame.

I pretty much see TKD lacking real world combat skills now because of the kicking that everyone loves so much.

Refined motor skilled kicks are only one of the issues. The main issue is the methodology of training i.e. artificial rule sets, artificial environments etc.

What is your thoughts on TKD being taught as a combat art and not just a martial art that you just teach kids and few select parents?
Are there different version of TKD? Military, sport, and suvillan?

Any art can be effective or it can be watered down to cater to children and hobbyists. Whether or not you can find TKD as a combative art in your area is something only you can determine.

How can we change the art back into a killing art if needed?

Although minimum force may not be minimal force, a 'killing art' is something that I would stay away from. The force used is only that which is needed to stop the threat. That may or may not be lethal force i.e. the force used which could cause great bodily harm and/or death.

How can we kill the flash and get back to the real deal?

Don't teach it. If that is all an instructor knows but wishes to teach SD, then they need to humble themselves and seek training from someone qualified.

Don't train in a sport school. Don't promote them with your $.

Educate your peers on the difference between sport and SD. If they wish to take sport, that is fine. As long as they know the differences, which are many and profound.

Should low kicks and sweeps be taught again from a real perspective?

Can't speak for anyone else, but I teach...and use them on a regular basis.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Yes, there are a lot of hand techs in the tuls but it seems that over all focus is learning the kicks since people are less accurate with feet than are hands. Maybe my blackbelt class lacks that part since in our area the blackbelts tend to fad away around 2nd degree.

Hard to say since I don't know all the details of your school or training. My instructors' school has many senior black belts who train on a regular basis. Their senior student is a VI dan, there are a couple of V and IV dans, and several III to I dans. There's always stuff to work on. Even if the focus tends to change from time to time (sparring at one point, tul at another, kicking another time, etc.) they always try to cover all areas. I am sure there could be more focus on self-defense at times but you do what you can (and there's nothing that says you can't train at home at times on areas you think you need to work on).

Even at camp it seems like we still focus on sparring than CQC. As I am going up rank I am trying to explore and train in my undevelop close range skills. Seems like some schools really don't teach low kicks and sweeps and how I know this is because of other non tkd artist.

Of course some schools do not teach those things. But the absence of a focus on close quarters combat is, perhaps, understandable given the underlying philosophy of Taekwon-Do. Kicks and mid-range punches and strikes are the primary weapons. Close range techniques exist, and are very effective. But an emphasis on avoiding getting into a close quarters situation should also be part of your training, IMNSHO. That's part of why there is such an emphasis on sliding, shifting, jumping, dodging, body dropping, etc. Controlling the distance between you and your opponent is of primary importance in any martial art, whether it's Taekwon-Do or one that focuses on more close-in combat. You want to develop the ability to use the strategy and tactics of your martial art, despite the best efforts of your opponent. If someone clinches you, for example, Taekwon-Do has ample techniques to deal with them at that range (and rather handily, too, I might add) but the core doctrine of the art is to get into range to deliver a kick or punch.

Like I said before, it's all a question of what the training emphasis of your school is.

Pax,

Chris

 

[terryl965]

I will only add this we have a sport competition team at my school, lord knows everyone on this forum probabaly knows my sons very well. But the sport side is a small part of what my school does, it fills a need fppr those wanting competition. But the core of my school is practical self defense and TKD as a tradition. With that being said the sport side teaches how to kick with power espacially in WTF style. My doors are always opened to anybody that would like to come in and see either the sport side or the traditional side.

I wish people could see beyond the sport sometimes.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I will only add this we have a sport competition team at my school, lord knows everyone on this forum probabaly knows my sons very well. But the sport side is a small part of what my school does, it fills a need fppr those wanting competition. But the core of my school is practical self defense and TKD as a tradition. With that being said the sport side teaches how to kick with power espacially in WTF style. My doors are always opened to anybody that would like to come in and see either the sport side or the traditional side.

I wish people could see beyond the sport sometimes.

I hear you Terry, but sometimes it isn't easy to see beyond. It seems you have a well rounded school, my compliments. But let's be honest, that isn't the majority or what people normally associate with TKD. It is difficult for a serious practitioner of the traditional (read combative) side of any art to overcome a general perception of 'kiddy-karate'. That isnt' a put down to anyone, and isn't meant to be...but let's be honest in that 'it is what it is'. If someone walked into my school door (read a professional looking for a SD dedicated, no frills, no nonsense art) they'd think they're walking into a hardcore Jujutsu/Hapkido school or maybe a Krav Maga or Muay Thai school. The last think they'd likely think is TKD. Yet for my client base I wouldn't even get them to the door, much less through it if I had a TKD sign out in front. The perception of TKD is fancy kicks, sport and kiddie-karate not fighting-in-a-phone-booth combatives.

There exists different elements within TKD. One element promotes children to BB status, has a myriad of colored belts with a $ attached to each and expensive Dan testing. Another element is none of the above. One element is sport. Another element is sport but tries to sucker people into thinking it's SD. One is SD. All under the same banner. It can get confusing and hence the occasional frustrated rant from all corners.

 

[TKDTony2179]

Thank you everyone for your opinion. I do agree with some of you guys that I guess in these times it is what it is and from what I see here and from what I heard from a 5th degree once if you want your school to do well ($100,000) then you have to teach or do what everone else is doing and that is a sport tournament taught manily to kids. He told me that he has a small club that teach tkd and practice street self-defense. He said he would be too tempted to through a round knee if he was in the tournament.

I was just wondering what everone else thought because I know a lot of people are opening up their own schools but I can tell that if everyone is doing a sport tkd then in the future there really won't be any leg kicks, sweeps, and elbows (only for breaking boards for testing) even taught in the system. I have done a kickboxing match when I was blue belt and ever since then I have always trained low kicks. Now that I am 3rd degree, I just want to train the close range techinques. Just finding partners that feel the same way is hard. I got a lot of work to do.

 

[Rumy73]

I am not bashing TKD when I say it is big business that frequently uses the carrot of belt testing and rank promotions for kids to increase profits and has made a violent art more palatable for your average Joe by filtering out the rougher edges. It kills me, actually, that this trend is unlikely to change. The growth of WTF far outpaces all other iterations of TKD combined. While there is still much diversity in Tkd, a significant number non-wtf is unlikely to last in the coming decades. Sure the odd holdouts will exist, but those masters are nearing retirement age and the kukkiwan is an instructor factory. The Olympics has been huge for wtf recognition; when people outside MA think of TKD, you can bet they are thinking of WTF. As a result, parents are sending kids to WTF schools. Even if they have no concept of WTF, statistically the chances are greater that little Johnny will be enrolled in a WTF school.

So if you want to make TKD practical, you may have to do it outside of a school -- just like if you want zen or a spiritual connection with the art.

Lastly, I am not saying TKD is unlikely plagued by commercialism and a sports agenda, but it is the art I studied. I am critical because I care. Then again, things change all the time. The dominant societal view has been to move away from using one's body in blue collar work or aggressively in competitive play. Football won't last much longer in its present shape. Moms are running the world more than dads. We are kinder and gentler with our credit card hand.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I am not bashing TKD when I say it is big business that frequently uses the carrot of belt testing and rank promotions for kids to increase profits and has made a violent art more palatable for your average Joe by filtering out the rougher edges. It kills me, actually, that this trend is unlikely to change. The growth of WTF far outpaces all other iterations of TKD combined. While there is still much diversity in Tkd, a significant number non-wtf is unlikely to last in the coming decades. Sure the odd holdouts will exist, but those masters are nearing retirement age and the kukkiwan is an instructor factory. The Olympics has been huge for wtf recognition; when people outside MA think of TKD, you can bet they are thinking of WTF. As a result, parents are sending kids to WTF schools. Even if they have no concept of WTF, statistically the chances are greater that little Johnny will be enrolled in a WTF school.

So if you want to make TKD practical, you may have to do it outside of a school -- just like if you want zen or a spiritual connection with the art.

Lastly, I am not saying TKD is unlikely plagued by commercialism and a sports agenda, but it is the art I studied. I am critical because I care. Then again, things change all the time. The dominant societal view has been to move away from using one's body in blue collar work or aggressively in competitive play. Football won't last much longer in its present shape. Moms are running the world more than dads. We are kinder and gentler with our credit card hand.

I'm going to try to be very careful in how I phrase this; by-and-large, real martial arts were never for the masses. Rather, it was a small, select group of very serious practitioners. Be they Shaolin monks, Okinawans that trained in secret or small, sweaty Dojo's or whatever. They were never a mass production item. Often it was father to son and perhaps a small number of trusted people. Things changed after WWII of course and martial arts were converted for the masses. In some cases it was watered down for the G.I.'s that would only be available for training for a short period of time. In other cases to get as many nationals into it as possible for pride.

Now without trying to offend anyone, the mass production martial arts are not really martial arts. And I'm serious that I'm not trying to piss anyone off. But the cookie-cutter/fast food martial arts are not really martial arts. Term it a martial sport if you like. The majority are in it for a hobby...and that's fine. But they aren't really martial artists. Yes, the window dressing is there, but the training methodology is for martial sport and not a martial art in the sense of how martial arts were trained in yesteryear. And nothing wrong with someone getting off the couch and out from in front of the T.V. and doing something positive. So don't take what I'm saying as downing martial sports. So my point is that real martial arts has always been a small % and always will be. So let the market be filled with sport. It makes many people happy and gives them a positive outlet in their lives. My only gripe has always been a martial sport claiming it is good for self-defense. That is where I will always draw the line. I wouldn't presume to tell or teach someone how to score points within a rule set in an artificial environment. That isn't my bag baby. But if you teach sport and most people learn it as a hobby, for the love of Pete don't presume to tell people their learning a martial art or self-defense. Be proud of what you teach and the niche you fill and don't try to pump up a business by making claims that aren't adequately dealt with.

 

[Rumy73]

I'm going to try to be very careful in how I phrase this; by-and-large, real martial arts were never for the masses. Rather, it was a small, select group of very serious practitioners. Be they Shaolin monks, Okinawans that trained in secret or small, sweaty Dojo's or whatever. They were never a mass production item. Often it was father to son and perhaps a small number of trusted people. Things changed after WWII of course and martial arts were converted for the masses. In some cases it was watered down for the G.I.'s that would only be available for training for a short period of time. In other cases to get as many nationals into it as possible for pride.

Now without trying to offend anyone, the mass production martial arts are not really martial arts. And I'm serious that I'm not trying to piss anyone off. But the cookie-cutter/fast food martial arts are not really martial arts. Term it a martial sport if you like. The majority are in it for a hobby...and that's fine. But they aren't really martial artists. Yes, the window dressing is there, but the training methodology is for martial sport and not a martial art in the sense of how martial arts were trained in yesteryear. And nothing wrong with someone getting off the couch and out from in front of the T.V. and doing something positive. So don't take what I'm saying as downing martial sports. So my point is that real martial arts has always been a small % and always will be. So let the market be filled with sport. It makes many people happy and gives them a positive outlet in their lives. My only gripe has always been a martial sport claiming it is good for self-defense. That is where I will always draw the line. I wouldn't presume to tell or teach someone how to score points within a rule set in an artificial environment. That isn't my bag baby. But if you teach sport and most people learn it as a hobby, for the love of Pete don't presume to tell people their learning a martial art or self-defense. Be proud of what you teach and the niche you fill and don't try to pump up a business by making claims that aren't adequately dealt with.

On the money! Ksd is right, historically, warriors were always a small class. Even today, the real fighting troops are only a minor fraction of the overall army, which is dominated by support units. Anyhow, there is nothing wrong with good exercise and learning something new; but let's be honest about it. When I had opts training, it was rough, because physical altercations are rough. Pre-planned selfdefense sparring cannot duplicate it. When I had kyukdogi, it was open ended, to a point, but it was still a rule based system. Fighting without a net takes the odd person who has a killer instinct.

 

[TKDTony2179]

Can they? What is your background in SD? How many kicks, and of what type have you seen in a real world attack by a determined attacker or against a determined attacker?

I do believe that round kick, front kick, and maybe the side kick can be used for self-defense. Side kicks to the knees as well as round kicks. Front kicks and round kicks to the groin as well. I wouldn't be throwing high round kicks to someone outside of the dojang. Untrain surface area and having shoes on will change things up a bit. I do watch real fights on youtube and I have seen other arts use only the simple kicks in the martial arts so I am sure those kicks work.

Although minimum force may not be minimal force, a 'killing art' is something that I would stay away from. The force used is only that which is needed to stop the threat. That may or may not be lethal force i.e. the force used which could cause great bodily harm and/or death.

When I was talking about a killing art I was just thinking of military usage. Even under self-control if I was had no choice (like on a war field) and all I got is my bare hands then yea I want to know skills that would kill someone. I may already do and wish not to teach it to kids but to an adult that in the military well yea I would.

I do understand what you are saying and that is just move on from your teacher because if he don't teach certain things then find a new saboomnim

 

[Cyriacus]

I do believe that round kick, front kick, and maybe the side kick can be used for self-defense. Side kicks to the knees as well as round kicks. Front kicks and round kicks to the groin as well. I wouldn't be throwing high round kicks to someone outside of the dojang. Untrain surface area and having shoes on will change things up a bit. I do watch real fights on youtube and I have seen other arts use only the simple kicks in the martial arts so I am sure those kicks work.




When I was talking about a killing art I was just thinking of military usage. Even under self-control if I was had no choice (like on a war field) and all I got is my bare hands then yea I want to know skills that would kill someone. I may already do and wish not to teach it to kids but to an adult that in the military well yea I would.

I do understand what you are saying and that is just move on from your teacher because if he don't teach certain things then find a new saboomnim

So, while someones barraging your head, youll just stand there and kick them in the knee?
Of course you can use them. You can use a jumping spinning back kick for all it matters, but usually if you have the space and oportunity, in defense, you should only really need something to push someone back, or you can just leave.

 

[TKDTony2179]

So, while someones barraging your head, youll just stand there and kick them in the knee?

Ha ha ha ha I had to laugh at that. No I wouldn't be just standing there letting someone bang my head in. I was talking about if at the right distance a low side kick to the knee as the person reached in with a punch (as seen in a lot of JKD vids) or if I parry a punch I may slip to an angle and use a low side kick. If they grabbed me with a two hand grab either a knee strike or a kick to the knee would create an opening for me to use something else. Even after a couple of jab, cross, rear leg round kicks to the knees would hurt most people. One technique don't win a fight or defend yourself. Multilple weapons are needed.

I wouldn't use a jump spin side or back kick in a non dojang. Even when throwing good boxing punches you can loose footing on slippery surfaces so no jump kicks in it for me. Just the basic moving, countering, blocking, parrying, jamming, cqc weapons, and throws is all you need in a non dojang enviroment.

 

[Cyriacus]

Ha ha ha ha I had to laugh at that. No I wouldn't be just standing there letting someone bang my head in. I was talking about if at the right distance a low side kick to the knee as the person reached in with a punch (as seen in a lot of JKD vids) or if I parry a punch I may slip to an angle and use a low side kick. If they grabbed me with a two hand grab either a knee strike or a kick to the knee would create an opening for me to use something else. Even after a couple of jab, cross, rear leg round kicks to the knees would hurt most people. One technique don't win a fight or defend yourself. Multilple weapons are needed.

I wouldn't use a jump spin side or back kick in a non dojang. Even when throwing good boxing punches you can loose footing on slippery surfaces so no jump kicks in it for me. Just the basic moving, countering, blocking, parrying, jamming, cqc weapons, and throws is all you need in a non dojang enviroment.

Ok, lemme make a list.

"I was talking about if at the right distance a low side kick to the knee as the person reached in with a punch (as seen in a lot of JKD vids)"
If someone has to step in to punch, they suck. Just saying.

"or if I parry a punch I may slip to an angle and use a low side kick. I"
If you parry it, you saw it coming. If you saw it coming, you could have/should have left.

"If they grabbed me with a two hand grab either a knee strike or a kick to the knee would create an opening for me to use something else."
It wouldnt. Think! Why does someone grab you? If theyre just doing it to be intimidating, attacking them is a crime for the most part. If someone grabs you, its to throw you, push you back, headbutt you, knee you, choke you, hold you while their mate does something... Youre not gonna create space by causing them pain, youll CAUSE the fight to start.

"Even after a couple of jab, cross, rear leg round kicks to the knees would hurt most people."
If you have the room to do any of that.

"One technique don't win a fight or defend yourself. Multilple weapons are needed."
Well, i agree that the last part is helpful, however i think youre thinking of a different kind of weapons

"I wouldn't use a jump spin side or back kick in a non dojang. Even when throwing good boxing punches you can loose footing on slippery surfaces so no jump kicks in it for me. Just the basic moving, countering, blocking, parrying, jamming, cqc weapons, and throws is all you need in a non dojang enviroment."
You can simplify alot further than that by just looking at what youre trying to achieve. Wanna damage a knee? Okay. Whats close to it? If your knee close to their knee? If so, knee the back of their knee. You dont need so many techniques in a non-dojang environment, you just need your brain to be working when you need it, and you need as few flaws in your thought process as possible.