Krav maga as applications for poomse?

[nicerdicer]

Hey guys,

Recently I've been looking into the applications of the poomse. I purchased the dvds from Simon o'neil. I tried some of the techniques with a white belt who has no ma experience. Some worked, some didn't.

My instructor came along and said, "if you have a guy who is good in poomse and a guy who sucks at poomse, the person with good poomse has a much better learning curve. That's why I supplement my tkd with krav maga techniques."

I went on and compared the movements of the poomse with krav maga techniques (I've been taking krav for approx. 1,5 yrs) and it turns out that a lot of movements in the poomse resemble straight to the point krav techniques.

Do you think my instructor's statement is legit?

Would you say supplementing tkd with krav would give tkd the missing link for self defense?

Cheers

 

[Dirty Dog]

I went on and compared the movements of the poomse with krav maga techniques (I've been taking krav for approx. 1,5 yrs) and it turns out that a lot of movements in the poomse resemble straight to the point krav techniques.

Do you think my instructor's statement is legit?

No, I would say they resemble (quite closely...) straight to the point Tae Kwon Do techniques. That would be because they ARE Tae Kwon Do techniques. That would be why they're in the Tae Kwon Do forms... The connection you're attempting to make is backwards. The Krav stuff you're talking about resembles Tae Kwon Do. Not the other way around.

Would you say supplementing tkd with krav would give tkd the missing link for self defense?

If that link is missing, the lack lies in the student or the instructor. Because in case you missed it, those techniques ARE Tae Kwon Do.

 

[TrueJim]

My instructor came along and said, "if you have a guy who is good in poomse and a guy who sucks at poomse, the person with good poomse has a much better learning curve. That's why I supplement my tkd with krav maga techniques."

I guess I'm confused by the instructor's line-of-reasoning? Here's where I'm confused:

1. Your instructor is saying that learning poomsae improves a student's learning curve. Okay, I can see that.
2. So it would make sense to me for a krav maga instructor to say something like, "I supplement my krav maga classes with poomsae in oder to improve students' learning curves."
3. But I don't see how it follows that a taekwondo instructor would say something like, "I supplement my taekwondo classes with krav maga because poomsae improves the students' learning curves."

Or let me put it another way:

• Since essentially all taekwondo classes do poomsae, that would mean all taekwondo students everywhere have relatively good learning curves.

I could see why it would make sense going the other way around, but I'm not seeing why "taekwondo = good learning curve" ==> "supplement with krav maga". I could see why it would make sense to say "taekwondo = good learning curve" ==> "supplement krav maga with taekwondo".

 

[nicerdicer]

No, I would say they resemble (quite closely...) straight to the point Tae Kwon Do techniques. That would be because they ARE Tae Kwon Do techniques. That would be why they're in the Tae Kwon Do forms... The connection you're attempting to make is backwards. The Krav stuff you're talking about resembles Tae Kwon Do. Not the other way around.

I asked the wrong question sorry. Im not implying that TKD and Krav Maga have any connection. Historically speaking there simply is no connection. To put it in better terms: would you agree that the biomechanics and movements from poomse can be used as a base for Krav techniques?

If that link is missing, the lack lies in the student or the instructor. Because in case you missed it, those techniques ARE Tae Kwon Do.

I wish it was... you seem very experienced, do you know any resources that would include the missing link for tkd self defense? The DVDs I talked about earlier are okay but some of the techniqes just dont work no matter how you put it.

 

[nicerdicer]

I guess I'm confused by the instructor's line-of-reasoning? Here's where I'm confused:

1. Your instructor is saying that learning poomsae improves a student's learning curve. Okay, I can see that.
2. So it would make sense to me for a krav maga instructor to say something like, "I supplement my krav maga classes with poomsae in oder to improve students' learning curves."
3. But I don't see how it follows that a taekwondo instructor would say something like, "I supplement my taekwondo classes with krav maga because poomsae improves the students' learning curves."

Or let me put it another way:

• Since essentially all taekwondo classes do poomsae, that would mean all taekwondo students everywhere have relatively good learning curves.

I could see why it would make sense going the other way around, but I'm not seeing why "taekwondo = good learning curve" ==> "supplement with krav maga". I could see why it would make sense to say "taekwondo = good learning curve" ==> "supplement krav maga with taekwondo".

Well, my instructor was looking for effective techniques, so he started Krav Maga. At first he did a German martial art similar to hapkido, but after a while he figured the joint locks arent quick and effective enough.

You could argue that my instructor should do some research and look deeper into tkd in order to find effective sd. Unfortunately these parts have been lost, I mean most tkd schools self defense is against attacks that simply dont happen very often. Dont take offense but if I walked into 90% of the tkd schools here in Germany, I could use my very basic grappling skills to beat most black belts. In order to counter that my instructor chose to cross train in krav.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I asked the wrong question sorry. Im not implying that TKD and Krav Maga have any connection. Historically speaking there simply is no connection. To put it in better terms: would you agree that the biomechanics and movements from poomse can be used as a base for Krav techniques?

Sure, I suppose. But I think you'd be better off applying TKD techniques to TKD.

I wish it was... you seem very experienced, do you know any resources that would include the missing link for tkd self defense? The DVDs I talked about earlier are okay but some of the techniqes just dont work no matter how you put it.

There is no missing link. The techniques are there. You've learned them in your poomsae. Start going through every "block" you've learned and ask yourself how it could be used as a strike.
Now do the same thing with every strike you've learned.
Now start asking yourself why the chamber for each technique is taught the way it is, because those chambers are often techniques in their own right.
For example, the classic way to chamber for an inside-out middle block is with the blocking hand under the other arm.

Why?
For one thing, that chamber can be used as a block.
Stand in a fighting stance, right foot/hand forward. Hands up, this isn't a sport application... Now have your partner punch with their right hand towards your ribs/abdomen on your left side. Bring your right hand down and across your body to block their punch. When you block their punch, notice that you've just chambered an outside middle block. You can now drop your left hand down, grabbing their arm and pulling them towards you (or just preventing them from bringing that arm back to block with...), while you execute that outside middle block... which is now a backfist to the temple.
Beginners need to be spoon fed simple applications for every movement. More advanced students should be able to apply some thought and come up with multiple applications for every movement. I expect students to begin doing this by about 4th or 3rd geup.

 

[Danny T]

Your poomsae is the catalog of movements.
Understand the movement and how can those movements be applied. A block is never just a block, a step is never just a step, and a punch is never just a punch. Every movement to a position can be applied many different ways.
Unfortunately many instructors never learned how to view movement and application potential. They can not pass on what they do not know.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Beginners need to be spoon fed simple applications for every movement. More advanced students should be able to apply some thought and come up with multiple applications for every movement. I expect students to begin doing this by about 4th or 3rd geup.

Agreed. The application is a learning tool . It helps one prepare for correct distance, angle and level. (More later)

 

[Earl Weiss]

......... A block is never just a block, a step is never just a step, and a punch is never just a punch. ..................

I disagree as does this guy;
"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick.
After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick.
Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."
-- Bruce Lee
Sometimes you just need to block or punch.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Would you say supplementing tkd with krav would give tkd the missing link for self defense?

Cheers

Broadening your horizons and experience can provide insights. If you think the textbook application is the real or only application your focus is too narrow. If you think some other art application is the real or only application, your focus is too narrow. If you think someone else has discovered the real application, your focus is too narrow. Some time ago i had an article printed in Totally TKD about this. Briefly, I said that you should think of a textbook application as a point in the center of a sphere. You can morph . the application so that the point moves anywhere from the center point to any other point in or on the sphere as circumstances warrant. You are limited only by practical considerations. But First you need to be able to perform the technique well at that point. (Understanding specified angles and distance) Crummy technique will not improved if morphed.

This is not a new idea. The first and last Karate Kid Movies used it. First the student was taught how to move wax on Wax off" "Put on Jacket..." ) and whe they could move well they were shown an application.

 

[Andrew Green]

Sure, I suppose. But I think you'd be better off applying TKD techniques to TKD.

The techniques are there. You've learned them in your poomsae. Start going through every "block" you've learned and ask yourself how it could be used as a strike.

I'm going to disagree here, while a lot of the same techniques may be represented in TKD forms, they are very often not taught. Not in application anyways, the movement might be there, but not how to actually apply it.

Why would he try to reinvent the wheel by attempting to create techniques from those movements when there are perfectly good examples of how to apply those techniques already out there.

We are lucky, we have access to tons of information that people didn't have even a very short time ago. We should be using it, not trying to stay in our bubble and reinvent the wheel based on clues left in forms.

At the end of the day there is really nothing "new", a hip throw is a hip throw and a punch is a punch regardless of what "style" the practitioner calls it. A person would be doing themselves a disservice if they didn't take advantage of the knowledge that specialists bring to the table. If you are looking to learn kicking, regardless of what style you do, you can probably learn something from TKD. If you are looking at punching you can learn from boxing. If you are looking at throws, Judo. Looking at Krav Maga for self-defence and then adding and enhancing your TKD with it.

 

[Danny T]

I disagree as does this guy;
"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick.
After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick.
Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."
-- Bruce Lee

Yeap, once you understand all the aspects of punching/kicking and the potential of within punching and kicking your realize it is all just a punch or a just a kick.
Have you ever from a left lead performed a right kick and completing the kick move in a right lead? In this instance the kick was a step as well or it could have been a knee into a step. It was just a movement going forward.

Sometimes you just need to block or punch.

In application at one specific time, this could be correct.
But in the study of forms a block movement is more than just a block. Same with kick movements, knee movement...etc.

 

[nicerdicer]

Sure, I suppose. But I think you'd be better off applying TKD techniques to TKD.


There is no missing link. The techniques are there. You've learned them in your poomsae. Start going through every "block" you've learned and ask yourself how it could be used as a strike.
Now do the same thing with every strike you've learned.
Now start asking yourself why the chamber for each technique is taught the way it is, because those chambers are often techniques in their own right.
For example, the classic way to chamber for an inside-out middle block is with the blocking hand under the other arm.

Why?
For one thing, that chamber can be used as a block.
Stand in a fighting stance, right foot/hand forward. Hands up, this isn't a sport application... Now have your partner punch with their right hand towards your ribs/abdomen on your left side. Bring your right hand down and across your body to block their punch. When you block their punch, notice that you've just chambered an outside middle block. You can now drop your left hand down, grabbing their arm and pulling them towards you (or just preventing them from bringing that arm back to block with...), while you execute that outside middle block... which is now a backfist to the temple.
Beginners need to be spoon fed simple applications for every movement. More advanced students should be able to apply some thought and come up with multiple applications for every movement. I expect students to begin doing this by about 4th or 3rd geup.

Very insightful! I love the post! Im going to ask the question once more lol: Do you know any resources of people who have done the things you wrote and filmed it or something?
I would love that!

 

[TrueJim]

Do you know any resources of people who have done the things you wrote and filmed it or something?

You mean videos that demonstrate the applications of poomsae?

See, for example, Taegeuk Poomsae

 

[Gnarlie]

Very insightful! I love the post! Im going to ask the question once more lol: Do you know any resources of people who have done the things you wrote and filmed it or something?
I would love that!

Master Jeong In Cheol (You have to pay for his vimeo, but it's not expensive)
Master Lee Dong Hee
Iain Abernethy (Karate but many Shotokan-based motions are shared)

There is a new wave within Korean Taekwondo, which is going under the name Sil Jeon Taekwondo, which is all about keeping it 'real'.

Also, if you are in Germany, come and see me and we can exchange ideas...

 

[drop bear]

Well, my instructor was looking for effective techniques, so he started Krav Maga. At first he did a German martial art similar to hapkido, but after a while he figured the joint locks arent quick and effective enough.

You could argue that my instructor should do some research and look deeper into tkd in order to find effective sd. Unfortunately these parts have been lost, I mean most tkd schools self defense is against attacks that simply dont happen very often. Dont take offense but if I walked into 90% of the tkd schools here in Germany, I could use my very basic grappling skills to beat most black belts. In order to counter that my instructor chose to cross train in krav.

You need to go out and field test your stuff. Which I think is what your instructor is trying to do with krav.

 

[nicerdicer]

You mean videos that demonstrate the applications of poomsae?

See, for example, Taegeuk Poomsae

Ive seen these vids before thanks anyways

 

[nicerdicer]

Master Jeong In Cheol (You have to pay for his vimeo, but it's not expensive)
Master Lee Dong Hee
Iain Abernethy (Karate but many Shotokan-based motions are shared)

There is a new wave within Korean Taekwondo, which is going under the name Sil Jeon Taekwondo, which is all about keeping it 'real'.

Also, if you are in Germany, come and see me and we can exchange ideas...

I know all of them and I think they're great! However if you look at things the way "Dirty Dog" described the process of deciphering Forms the guys you mentioned dont work that way. I think theyre legit but they should also look further into how some moves are rather throws and blocks are strikes etc. Its still a great start!

Wow man! Sil Jeon Taekwondo sounds awesome!! I gotta look into it.

Im located in Bavaria, you? (dont worry lol we dont have to become very specific about the locations)

 

[Gnarlie]

I know all of them and I think they're great! However if you look at things the way "Dirty Dog" described the process of deciphering Forms the guys you mentioned dont work that way. I think theyre legit but they should also look further into how some moves are rather throws and blocks are strikes etc. Its still a great start!

Wow man! Sil Jeon Taekwondo sounds awesome!! I gotta look into it.

Im located in Bavaria, you? (dont worry lol we dont have to become very specific about the locations)

Ja in der Hauptstadt sogar

 

[nicerdicer]

Ja in der Hauptstadt sogar

I pm'd you bruv