Psycholoy of fighting

caped crusader

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I believe this to be very important for a martial artist. To have the mindset to win a verbal discussion in everyday life or a fight. To understand the other person not only yourself. some people are defeated before a fight begins or do not have the mindset to psych out an opponent.
 

ThatOneCanadian

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With friendly verbal discussions or disagreements, I find that being polite and coming to a common agreement between the two sides is the best option.

With more heated arguments and people who look like they could get violent, I like to use the Socratic Method. In other words, I stay calm, slither my way into their deepest insecurities, and make them see the error of their own ways, hopefully getting them to calm down and reassess their violent disposition.

I don't know what psychology is like in a real fight; I'm so good at the above methods that I've never had to be in one.
 

wab25

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I agree with you that mind set is important... and many times we don't focus enough on that mind set. That said, I don't agree with some of your observations above.

To have the mindset to win a verbal discussion in everyday life or a fight.
Those are two very different mindsets. They are not the same. Ever watch the guy honking and yelling at the car in front of him to go? That guy may be yelling, screaming, taunting, arguing, .... but as soon as the guy in front gets out of his car and walks up to the window, things change in a hurry. From the safety of a verbal argument, everyone can be the hero... but when it changes to a physical confrontation, things change. Its not so easy any more. Ever hear the phrase "talk is cheap." Overcoming your fear of losing and argument and overcoming your fear of being physically hurt are very different. Notice in the above example, the guy getting out of his car, is not winning any verbal arguments here.

To understand the other person not only yourself.
If you are talking sport... sure. If you are talking self defense... not so much. You don't have time to figure out and understand the other guy. Understanding yourself, yes that helps. Thats why most martial arts talk about understanding yourself first, then understanding the other guy. In a self defense type situation, you need to be reacting immediately... in many situations before you even know who is attacking you, let alone being able to understand the other guy.
 
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caped crusader

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Those are two very different mindsets. They are not the same
I beleive they are. verbal confrontations can be in an office, anywhere. no one wants to lose face and in some cases if you lose face too often you lose respect from people. Lose promotion.
which brings me onto your 2nd point..

If you are talking sport... sure. If you are talking self defense... not so much.
I have been in and seen situations where people back down because they are mentally beaten before it starts. Maybe they could win but inside they are scared, have doubts about heir own abilities. someone might look imposing or is loud. mental toughness for me is still Number 1 . Indeed someone wrote recently about "freezing" in sparring. It織s not being a coward but lack of self esteem and confidence and mental toughness.
 

isshinryuronin

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You don't have time to figure out and understand the other guy.
Basically true. And you don't always need to figure out the other guy. Luckily there are instinctual responses we can count on unless he is a very well trained experienced professional. Most of the time, an understanding of basic tactics, practiced muscle memory and noting his posture will give you the 'figuring out" you need without thinking about it.

As for understanding the other guy, I'll leave that to Dr. Phil. I don't really care about his motivations, social background, or his personal demons. It's good if you have that luxury, but usually you just have to play the cards showing on the table. You see a punch and his position - evade and counter.
Indeed someone wrote recently about "freezing" in sparring. It織s not being a coward but lack of self esteem and confidence and mental toughness
It could be all of the above. There is another consideration as well - mental conditioning. Many of us are taught from early childhood the moral imperative that it's "wrong" to fight and to hurt others. Over the years, this becomes the mindset and keeps one from being able to get past it and "pull the switch," to go into an aggressive controlled fight response when needed.

I would revise that moral imperative to, it's wrong to WANT to fight and hurt others. Sometimes fighting and hurting others is necessary. This part of the equation should be taught as well. One just needs to take care of how they define "necessary."
 

wab25

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I beleive they are. verbal confrontations can be in an office, anywhere. no one wants to lose face and in some cases if you lose face too often you lose respect from people. Lose promotion.
Everyone loves to get into verbal confrontations. But not all those people are willing to fight. Most people will talk big, until the physical attack starts. Further, there are people that don't get into verbal confrontations... but they will beat you to death literally. Its a mistake to think that just because you can stand up to someone in a verbal office dispute... that you also have the right mental fortitude to fight off the knife wielding attacker waiting for you in the parking lot. It can also be a mistake to think that the guy that does not want to argue with you, can't and won't kick your trash.
I have been in and seen situations where people back down because they are mentally beaten before it starts. Maybe they could win but inside they are scared, have doubts about heir own abilities.
We have all seen this. If you pay attention, many times its the guy that starts the verbal altercation thinking the other guy will back down once he wins... but when the other guy makes it physical, the verbal guy shuts down... even if he won the verbal argument, he is still afraid to get beat down.

The psychology to engage in and win verbal arguments is not the same as the psychology needed to get into a fight or the psychology needed to fight for your life. Pretending that they are the same, will not help anyone. In fact, it may hurt someone when they believe it and find out the hard way that throwing fists is very different to throwing insults.
 
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caped crusader

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Everyone loves to get into verbal confrontations. But not all those people are willing to fight. Most people will talk big, until the physical attack starts. Further, there are people that don't get into verbal confrontations... but they will beat you to death literally. Its a mistake to think that just because you can stand up to someone in a verbal office dispute... that you also have the right mental fortitude to fight off the knife wielding attacker waiting for you in the parking lot. It can also be a mistake to think that the guy that does not want to argue with you, can't and won't kick your trash.
thank you for your opinion.

The psychology to engage in and win verbal arguments is not the same as the psychology needed to get into a fight or the psychology needed to fight for your life. Pretending that they are the same, will not help anyone. In fact, it may hurt someone when they believe it and find out the hard way that throwing fists is very different to throwing insults.
thank you for your input. can you give us examples of your experiences ?
 

Xue Sheng

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I believe this to be very important for a martial artist. To have the mindset to win a verbal discussion in everyday life or a fight. To understand the other person not only yourself. some people are defeated before a fight begins or do not have the mindset to psych out an opponent.

Redirect....and/or get off the line...... confrontation over
 

wab25

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This is flatly wrong. There are many people who certainly don't enjoy verbal confrontations and those who actively avoid them.
I stand corrected... I could have used better wording.

The point I was going after was that the set of people that enjoy getting involved in verbal confrontations and the set of people willing to get into a physical confrontation are different sets, though they may overlap. Having the mind set to jump into a verbal argument is a different mind set to jumping into a physical confrontation which is also different than fighting for your life. Having the mind set to argue verbally does not equal having the mind set to fight physically.

Not everyone who talks big and wins arguments is willing or able to physically fight. It happens all the time.
 

jks9199

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"He will win a thousand battles who knows when to fight and when not to fight."

Not everything is combat or a fight. And if you try to turn everything into a fight, you will likely discover that there aren't many around who care to associate with you.
 
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drop bear

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If you are talking sport... sure. If you are talking self defense... not so much. You don't have time to figure out and understand the other guy. Understanding yourself, yes that helps. Thats why most martial arts talk about understanding yourself first, then understanding the other guy. In a self defense type situation, you need to be reacting immediately... in many situations before you even know who is attacking you, let alone being able to understand the other guy.

Make time. This is the point of all those soft skills people honk on about.


Fights don't just happen. Something leads up to them. Even ambushes. And the more you can notice and control that. The less you find yourself suddenly getting headlocked and punched out of nowhere with no time to react.
 

drop bear

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Found this...

That makes no sense. They pose for a photo looking tough. You can't get more of a manufacted interaction than a fighters face off/weigh in.


Ok. The masks don't help. But by the time these guys have had fifty odd fights. They couldn't care less about their scary eyeball.
 

Bill Mattocks

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I think winning is the wrong focus. Would it be good for me to win an argument if I was wrong?

By the token, self-defense isn't based on winning. It's based on survival. If I lose a fight by avoiding it, I've achieved my goal.

We may be using the term differently, but to me, winning applies to sports and not much else.
 

ThatOneCanadian

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I think winning is the wrong focus. Would it be good for me to win an argument if I was wrong?

By the token, self-defense isn't based on winning. It's based on survival. If I lose a fight by avoiding it, I've achieved my goal.

We may be using the term differently, but to me, winning applies to sports and not much else.
"Wrong" is completely subjective.
 

ThatOneCanadian

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Not really. If you claim the sky is orange or that 2+2=5, you're wrong. There's nothing subjective about it.
I'm not talking about scientific or mathematical realities; I'm talking about morals, things that are the main cause of most fights anyway.
 
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