Proficiency? Effort? Accomplishments? Spirit? What makes an MAist?

IcemanSK

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I realize there are a lot of things that go into being a martial artist (Taekwondoan specifically) that's it's not one thing at the exclusion of another. What do you hold up as important in considering someone a martial artist? Do you distinguish between referring to someone as a martial artist vs. saying someone is a "practioner?"

Many older Korean masters I've spoken with emphasize having the proper "spirit" (Westerners tend to say "attitude") more than they emphasize technique or skill. It's always seemed to mean "show up, train hard, be a kind person outside the dojang." Do you see this as part of what makes an MAist?

Is it only physical (one's technical abilities? Is it training daily that makes an MAist?

When you think of the ideal Taekwondoan, what characteristics make up that person?
 

TrueJim

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Do you distinguish between referring to someone as a martial artist vs. saying someone is a "practioner?"

Interesting question. Back in my grad-school days I got reasonably proficient at playing guitar, but I never considered myself a musician. To me, a musician was somebody who could sight-read music and had a really good handle on musical theory. When I read your sentence, I asked myself, "Am I a martial artist?" and the word "artist" is what stuck in my mind. I don't think I'm an artist of the martial sort -- I'm just not proficient enough. I work hard and get some nice compliment on some of my techniques, but I've seen real martial artists just like I've heard real musicians.
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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For me, proficiency is the key. I used to do weights everyday, but given my small build, I was not "a bodybuilder".

To me, a tkd blackbelt who is not proficient (e.g., an older person who has no power, flexibility, or punching coordination) is not a martial artist in spite of the black belt. I'm sure others would disagree.
 

JR 137

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For me, proficiency is the key. I used to do weights everyday, but given my small build, I was not "a bodybuilder".

To me, a tkd blackbelt who is not proficient (e.g., an older person who has no power, flexibility, or punching coordination) is not a martial artist in spite of the black belt. I'm sure others would disagree.

So if a person was physically proficient, but naturally got older, should their black belt be taken away?

What about someone who was physically proficient, had a severe accident or two resulting in mobility loss, yet continues to train as hard as they can? Should that person be demoted?

I train with a few people that fit the above descriptions, among other things.

IMO, rank is a personal thing, just as everyone's reason for training is a personal thing. What the people to my right and to my left have done to earn their rank and continue to do realistically have no bearing on me.

My criteria is training hard and not making excuses. Demonstrate and apply what I can to the best of my abilities without worrying what the next guy nor last guy is doing. I have more than enough things to worry about; worrying about someone else's training that I'm not responsible for doesn't help anything.
 

CB Jones

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For me, proficiency is the key. I used to do weights everyday, but given my small build, I was not "a bodybuilder".

To me, a tkd blackbelt who is not proficient (e.g., an older person who has no power, flexibility, or punching coordination) is not a martial artist in spite of the black belt. I'm sure others would disagree.

Wow that is crazy.

So let me get this straight. Someone could train their whole lives in TKD.....prove themselves in competition by being one of the greatest all time competitor......prove themselves numerous time in real life scenarios......attain a 10th Dan rank.....become one of the most successful instructors in the world.....have a complete understanding of the art.......BUT because their body has aged and no longer allows them to physically do what their minds know how to......you would disrespect them by proclaiming they are no longer a Martial Artist regardless of their rank?
 

JR 137

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Wow that is crazy.

So let me get this straight. Someone could train their whole lives in TKD.....prove themselves in competition by being one of the greatest all time competitor......prove themselves numerous time in real life scenarios......attain a 10th Dan rank.....become one of the most successful instructors in the world.....have a complete understanding of the art.......BUT because their body has aged and no longer allows them to physically do what their minds know how to......you would disrespect them by proclaiming they are no longer a Martial Artist regardless of their rank?

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he means.

My teacher has had both hips replaced over the years, and is currently holding off on getting one replaced again. He can't move like he used to, so I guess he's not a real martial artist.

I love sparring with the older and broken down guys. They become so crafty and punish me every time I make a mistake. They move minimally, yet make me miss just about every time and hit me whenever they feel like it.

I guess they're not real martial artists either.
 
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Jenna

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For me, proficiency is the key. I used to do weights everyday, but given my small build, I was not "a bodybuilder".

To me, a tkd blackbelt who is not proficient (e.g., an older person who has no power, flexibility, or punching coordination) is not a martial artist in spite of the black belt. I'm sure others would disagree.
When you are older (like the person you have in mind in your definition above) and you are not so physically able as you perhaps are currently, you will not be a martial artist, and so what would you become? how would you define what you do in your MA at that stage?? thank you :)
 

Martial_Kumite

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I realize there are a lot of things that go into being a martial artist (Taekwondoan specifically) that's it's not one thing at the exclusion of another. What do you hold up as important in considering someone a martial artist? Do you distinguish between referring to someone as a martial artist vs. saying someone is a "practioner?"

Many older Korean masters I've spoken with emphasize having the proper "spirit" (Westerners tend to say "attitude") more than they emphasize technique or skill. It's always seemed to mean "show up, train hard, be a kind person outside the dojang." Do you see this as part of what makes an MAist?

Is it only physical (one's technical abilities? Is it training daily that makes an MAist?

When you think of the ideal Taekwondoan, what characteristics make up that person?

10% luck
20% skill
15% concentrated power of will
5% pleasure
50% pain
(lol):p

I see being a martial artist as more of a lifestyle (just an opinion). It is how you carry yourself inside and outside the dojang. It is how you view your training, job, assignments, other people. It varies, it is different, BUT you can tell when someone has it. For example, I do not see myself as a good martial artist. I am fairly new (been training only about 10 years) and have had major difficulty living this lifestyle. Does this mean that It had no effect on me.... no. It has, I am just terrible at keeping it so, which only means I am human.

As for a practitioner (just an opinion), it is a person who practices and participates in the art, but does not have that kind of spirit/mindset/etc. It Doses NOT mean that they are any worse than a martial artist, but you can tell the difference between them.

Just an opinion.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I realize there are a lot of things that go into being a martial artist (Taekwondoan specifically) that's it's not one thing at the exclusion of another. What do you hold up as important in considering someone a martial artist? Do you distinguish between referring to someone as a martial artist vs. saying someone is a "practioner?"

Many older Korean masters I've spoken with emphasize having the proper "spirit" (Westerners tend to say "attitude") more than they emphasize technique or skill. It's always seemed to mean "show up, train hard, be a kind person outside the dojang." Do you see this as part of what makes an MAist?

Is it only physical (one's technical abilities? Is it training daily that makes an MAist?

When you think of the ideal Taekwondoan, what characteristics make up that person?
To me, there are two ways to look at this. Every person who practices a martial art is a "martial artist". However, many of us also recognize a philosophical construct that is also called a "martial artist".

So, yes, everyone who practices or studies a martial art is a martial artist. But there is a higher level, a set of standards, that many (especially among the TMA) hold as an ideal for martial artists. I assume this latter is what you're talking about, so that's what I'll address.

Among the ideals I hold for a martial artist:
  • Humility
  • A "student" approach (always looking to learn)
  • A desire to develop life skills, not just fighting skills
  • Enhanced self-protection by consciously avoiding unnecessary physical conflict
  • Courage (a vague term)
  • Submission of ego to learning and self-improvement
  • Some focus on physical fitness - not necessarily athleticism, and this can mean a lot of things as we age
  • A desire to learn lessons from MA that go beyond fighting and direct self-defense
  • Honesty
  • Integrity with a set of personal values
  • Being open to other perspectives
I'm sure I could come up with more. Some will disagree with some of these, and that's not just okay - it's a good thing.
 

Gerry Seymour

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For me, proficiency is the key. I used to do weights everyday, but given my small build, I was not "a bodybuilder".

To me, a tkd blackbelt who is not proficient (e.g., an older person who has no power, flexibility, or punching coordination) is not a martial artist in spite of the black belt. I'm sure others would disagree.
So someone ceases to be a martial artist at some point, even if they are studying martial arts?
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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Wow that is crazy.

So let me get this straight. Someone could train their whole lives in TKD.....prove themselves in competition by being one of the greatest all time competitor......prove themselves numerous time in real life scenarios......attain a 10th Dan rank.....become one of the most successful instructors in the world.....have a complete understanding of the art.......BUT because their body has aged and no longer allows them to physically do what their minds know how to......you would disrespect them by proclaiming they are no longer a Martial Artist regardless of their rank?

When I mentioned "older person" I was thinking of the older people who get the black belt through attendance and effort. There are plenty of terrible blackbelts on youtub; I'll let you find your own example. They may be a blackbelt but I personally woudn't think of them as a martial artist if they can do nothing more to defend themselves than their friend who never did any martial arts.

Do I consider Arnold Schwartznegger a bodybuilder? Through his knowledge and better than average physique, yes. Do I consider the old guy at the gym who started lifting weights 4 years ago for fitness a bodybuilder? Probably not.
 

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