Professors! (A Rant.)

[arnisador]

A link posted on the Kenpo forum led to the page of "Professor" Jeff Speakman. I am so tired of seeing every martial artist turn around and declare themselves a Professor. It's more title inflation--something that sounds impressive, it is hoped, to an American audience. The kenpo system grants three grades of it but it is turning up absolutely everywhere it seems. I saw an ad for a seminar by Prof. George Kirby the other day. When did this become the title of choice for senior martial artists? I understand the analogy between dan ranks and stages of college study but this is taking it too far. When there were just a few who used it it was one thing but now it seems like you can't swing a staff without striking a Professor of the martial arts.

I demand an immediate end to this practice. Let them go back to using (Supreme) Grandmaster or Soke or Suro or Head or what-have-you. I am tired of people making it sound as though they have pseudo-academic credentials. Mind you, unlike high school teachers, college professors are creators of knowledge as well as teachers of it; some martial arts Professors meet this standard but many don't.

(And if I see any posts signed Prof. Cthulhu, Prof. Rustaz, or Prof. G. Ronin, I won't be held responsible for my actions.)

 

[GouRonin]

I said it before and I'll say it again...

"Whatever you wear, is what you gotta bear!"

If someone tries to tell me they're a credential I ask how they came by it. It's no crime to ask. If you're satisfied then use it. If not, then "Sir, Ma'am, Mr, Mrs, Miss, or Mz" will do just fine. In north america it's respectful to use those titles with anyone.

When you wear the belt, you wear the history of it. if anyone has a problem with my belt colour or rank then I welcome them to tell me why.

But then again I don't demand to be called Professor.

"Lord Gou Ronin of the Frozen Northlands"

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Hey, don't look at me. I agree with ya. Seems like Every ad in Black Belt magazine is by Professor -this- and Supreme Grandmaster -that-. Alot of those folks have no real lineage, and in several cases, little knowledge, other than how to put out a slick ad. Sadly, we're in a lose-lose situation. If we try to regulate the industry, we run into alot of problems, and if we don't, alot of yahoos end up leaving a bad taste for the arts in others mouths.



I agree with "Lord" Gou....don't call me professor either.


Thought Admiral Kaith Epetai-Rustaz
:samurai:

 

[tshadowchaser]

As I have said befor I do not like seeing people who have little knowledge or no ligit claim (passed down through a family line, or awarded by the last head of the system) useing these titles.
It was easier 25 or more years ago when if you opened a school you had better be who you claimed because someone would soon be comeing in to check out your credientials.If they where not ligit you where closed down
Shadow

 

[Cthulhu]

I think the whole point of using a 'Western' title like professor is to move away from the titles that came into being in the sixties/seventies, like 'master' and 'grandmaster', which many Westerners may find a bit off-putting. Titles like 'professor' can give an academic air to the people who are supposed to be teaching the art, while maintaining some hoity-toity title.

But...

...the bottom line is that if you are not teaching at the collegiate level, or to be more specific, if you are not currently employed as a visiting, assistant, associate, or <whatever> professor, then you simply are not a real professor.

Just as black belts tend to frown upon any person who did not spend the time earning the rank, I think academics have the right to dislike it when a person calls themself a professor, without having spent the time earning their Ph.D., M.D., or even M.A/S.

This is one good reason why it may be a nice idea to keep using the Asian titles. They don't imply any 'mastery' over any person, and they don't award pseudo-academic titles to the bearer of the title. Just educate the students, and even the general public, on the translations of the titles.

Then again, there's nothing wrong with just showing respect to everybody in the school by addressing them as Mr., Mrs., or Ms.

Cthulhu

PS - As a 'Great Old One', I prefer to be addressed as 'Exalted One', 'Bringer of Madness', or perhaps 'Harbinger of Everlasting Doom'. Most of the time, I'm greeted with a piercing 'AAAIIiiiieeeeee', which is abrublty cut off as I vaporize the human's brain.

 

[Jim M]

To me, it seems just as presumptious for a martial arts senior to use the title "professor" as it is for them to use the title "Doctor". I earned a law degree from Rutgers University. I am not a "Professor" since I do not teach at a college or university (in my experience, other instructors are called "teachers" and are called "Mr." or "Ms." as appropriate). Although I hold a Juris Doctorate, the only situation I am permitted (at least according to the New Jersey Supreme Court) to use the title "Doctor" would be if I were teaching at a univeristy that Professors who have earned doctorates routinely use that title.

Elementary and High School teachers don't use the title "professor" I don't see how a martial arts instructor is entitled to use it either.

Just my opinion of course.

Jim

 

[arnisador]

I note from this page that "professeur" is an official rank/title in Savate.

 

[Turner]

What is the need for titles anyways? Having a title attached to your name isn't going to make you any better or make you more respected. Sure, you might fool the uninitiated into joining your school, but once they've been opened up to your teaching and the teaching abilities of others you're going to be validated or exposed. That title certainly isn't going to do it.

Titles don't carry anything but added baggage. You start puffing up your titles and pretending to be something you're not, the practice of the martial arts is going to cease to be fun. If you are Grandmaster-Professor-Poomba you wind up having more to lose than anyone else. Lets use sparring for an example. If you, with your black belt all wrapped in stripes and your certificate can't be hung on the wall because of all the ink from the titles brings down even the load bearing posts, decide to spar against some no-title 2nd or 3rd Dan you lose no matter how you fair in the competition. If you lose your titles are going to have lost all of the respect of those watching. If you win the low ranking individual will be praised for lasting so long. You get nothing because it is obvious that you should have won. So, as this Great-Grand-Mucketty-Muck, you are going to avoid sparring because of that.

I prefer to keep things plain and simple. I wear a black belt without any stripes. Refer to me by my first name or last name, whichever you prefer. I've had students pick up the habit of calling me "Master." I stop it right there. I'm not a master of anything. I'm only 23 and don't want to be anything more than just another student... I just happen to be the student that is leading the class. Maybe when I'm 70 I'll be ready for it... probably not.

Now, back to the sparring, being concerned with what people think of you and your ability shouldn't be important to you. I don't spar to win or lose, but rather to learn. If I'm beat by a white belt I could care less because I'm happy that someone has done that good of a job teaching said white belt. I've nothing to lose and everything to gain. Thats the way it should be. But if you're wearing huge titles on you, then you must be concerned with what people think... so, sucks to be you!

 

[Shinzu]

this thread rocks!! i like the attitute. i feel the same way you guys feel, so ill keep my post short.

a person who claims he is better than others because of his title is really a "jack a$$ of all trades... master of none!"

 

[Rob_Broad]

I actually prefer the title Mr. when I am teaching the rest of the time I am rob or whatever pops into the person's head. And trust me I have been called a lot of different things.

 

[kickyou]

Call me Heather, Call me Mrs. Sheridan, just don't Call me late for dinner.LOL:rofl:
A title is just that a name it is what the person has in the way of knowledge and experience that matters.I agree it is getting tiresome seeing all these new titles that are popping up it is to give the illusion that they have the most knowledge and experience so you will give them your money for them to impart their "wisdom" to you.It also allows them to inflate their prices along with their egos.


Signed,

Professor of Motherhood,Dirty Diapers and Clothes
Heather

Watch for my new how to book that will cover everuthing from how to change a diaper without wearing the contents and how to mix the perfect Formula.

 

[Kirk]

Seems like we're all in agreement, here, so I won't be
redundant. I think titles exist because of our own
misunderstanding of the asian languages. Sensei, or Sifu is
not a solely m.a. title. My brother in law is Vietnamese, and just
to be stupid, I asked a Vietnamese friend here how to say hello
to him. By him being my brother in law, my friend assumed he
was older than me, and told me "chow ahn". Well it turns out
that I did say hi to him, but if he didn't know better, would have
insulted him, by basically calling him an old man. Sensei and
Sifu are similar. When they'd say yes, sensei, they were
addressing the man/woman in the proper respect within their
traditions. They were NOT bestowing some title on them. It's
their placement in the present surroundings. I think there's a
post somewhere on this board about the use of Sensei???

Anyways, I think this is where it all stemmed from. Master was
soon to follow, and now Professor. I think the only thing
appropriate would be Mr/Mrs because it's proper respect to
OUR traditions and surroundings. Or a title of "Teacher",
because that's the job the TEACHER is taking. However, one
shouldn't be called that, if they're in someone else's school,
learning.

Okay, I guess I was redundant .. sorry :shrug:

 

[arnisador]

Great attitude Turner and interesting perspective Kirk--I think I agree. It frustrates me to see this title inflation because I know it serves principally to boost egos and hoodwink the public.

 

[Dronak]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Just as black belts tend to frown upon any person who did not spend the time earning the rank, I think academics have the right to dislike it when a person calls themself a professor, without having spent the time earning their Ph.D., M.D., or even M.A/S.

I guess I basically agree with the previous posts. Cthulhu brings up some good points though. "Professor" is really an academic title. It would seem strange to me to call a martial arts instructor "professor", something about that just seems wrong. The more traditional titles like "master" are fine with me. I see how using western titles can make things more palatable to western people, but these are (generally) eastern arts. We should expect to adapt to their way of doing things. But if people really have a problem with the eastern titles, I'm sure they could talk to their teacher about it. And as noted, things like Mr./Mrs./Miss are acceptable "titles" showing respect for anyone at all, at least here in the States.

Anyway, more directly to the quote above, I suppose Cthulhu is right there, too. I'm sure MA real black belts who earned that rank don't take too kindly to people claiming to be one without spending the time to earn it. It does kind of follow that real professors could be upset at others using the title without having put in the time to earn it. I received my MS a few years ago and will hopefully complete my PhD next year. (Astronomy for the curious.) While getting the PhD would allow the use of "Doctor" as a title, it is a doctoral degree after all, I'm not sure if I'll use it (I don't really go for flaunting titles and awards) and I almost certainly wouldn't use "professor" if I wasn't teaching in a college/university. At this point, I'm not sure I'd actually be upset at someone using the title when they hadn't earned it. I also don't have that title myself though, so things could change in the future. I suspect that although I don't really agree with it, I probably wouldn't do much unless I came across someone personally. If that happened, I might have to call them on it -- "how can you be a 'professor' when you're not in academia and don't have an advanced/graduate degree?" Well, I hope that wasn't too much rambling for a subject most people seem to agree on.

P.S. -- On Turner's comments, I would agree that if you're just the student leading the class (the "training leader" we call him/her here), you shouldn't be called "master". Classmates just call each other by their first names. Last names would be fine, too, but we generally don't do that. Our teacher we do call "master" but that's because in CMA it's a generational thing, not really a ranking thing. E.g, our master's master is our grandmaster. So it's a bit different for us. My above comments though were based on the idea of "master" as a ranking title since I realize many places don't use it generationally like we do.

 

[Cthulhu]

Hey, Dronak...good luck on that degree! I was a former Astronomy major myself. Then reality set in Seriously, the only thing you can do with an undergrad astronomy degree is to go back to school. Since I have a family to consider...

Anyway, the whole point was that I have a great appreciation of what your studies require of you. If you can manage an PhD...even an MS...in astronomy without going MAD, that's a considerable accomplishment.

I would posit that those who have earned advanced degrees in the sciences or mathematics would be particularly peeved of those who use the 'professor' title and have no background in higher education. That subject matter is extrememly difficult, even for the brilliant, so I can see how someone who has spent years toiling, working, and bleeding grey matter would be upset at someone who called themselves 'professor' for no real reason other than to bolster their image and ego.

That being said (), if there is an established ranking/title structure within a martial arts system that awards the title of 'professor' for certain ranks, I don't really see anything wrong with that. If this is the case, it is the responsibility of the title holder to specify that the title refers to a martial arts rank, not a teaching position at a college/university.

Cthulhu
jeez...cold medicine makes me babble...I think I just made the same point about 50 different ways in this post

 

[Dronak]

I'll try to keep this on the short side since it's not exactly on topic. Thanks, Cthulhu. I can certainly understand your priorities changing when you have a family to consider. Me, I'm still single (but looking) so I don't have too much to worry about besides school right now. And yeah, grad school is definitely not for everyone. You need to learn fairly high level material in a good amount of detail and still be able to retain a fair fraction of it, at least to pass the qualifier. The qualifier itself is a major mental toll; it's definitely a relief to have passed that. I think most people who get in can handle the work, but there are a lot of mental stresses, too. We're giving another 6 or so years of our life for this and being rather underpaid and often overworked during it, but expecting it to pay off in the long run. It darn well better, too. A good friend of mine got seriously depressed for the better part of a year after her qualifier before overcoming it. I had my down periods, too, but nothing quite that bad. I considered quitting as I suspect many people do, but it was usually just out of frustration. I knew I'd regret it if I did, so I stuck with it. I'd be lying if I said suicide never crossed my mind either. Fleeting thoughts of how easy it would be to end the trouble/pain, but that was it -- fleeting. It was never a real option, but I can't deny having had those thoughts. Anyway, I'm still sticking with it. I hope to be able to defend in about a year assuming all goes well.

To take it more on track again, I think I can see your point about the math, science, engineering types being the most upset. Not to say other areas aren't hard, I'm sure they are but in a different way. I think most people would agree that many other fields aren't the same as the science type fields (otherwise we'd have more scientists, right?). If the "professor" title is a recognized one in some MA system, that's OK. But you're right that they should make some distinction because when most people hear "professor" they think "college/university teacher". To not make the distinction can be misleading. Kind of like an academic doctor (PhD) and a medical doctor (MD); both use the same title, but most people probably think "medical doctor" when they hear "doctor".

 

[Chiduce]

I see that this is a wild one. Opinions are like A holes, everybody has one! Yet, the term professor is used in private elementary, middle, and high schools as well as community colleges, colleges and universities. Let's consider the community college. The instructor may or may not have an undergraduate degree in any given academic field; yet they are addressed as professor because of the academic environment. However, they must at least hold an associates degree in their respective teaching discipline. So, the professor title, in reality does not have to go to the senior instructor in a martial arts style, but can even be used by the shodan. A professor is a teacher no matter how it is put into context. The teacher leads and instructs students in some form of communicative learning experience. This experience can be in motor cross racing, dance, music, or martial arts. The title fits the position to instruct, lead, create, research, develop, and guide. Thus, fact is any martial artist with at least an associate degree/ or it's equivalency in an academic discipline and instructs in any environment can use the title of professor with no conference from another inside or outside source. I think that the Sensei/Sifu titles are more confusing, because a sensei's method of instruction differs greatly from that of a sifu. The sifu would be considered the more knowledegable and offer instruction and research in the student's lineage, modern history of his/her system, ancient history of the system, as well as stress chi development through meditation and prayer, address and deliver the wisdom of the sages in his/her instruction in buliding the student teacher relationship! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Kirk]

Main Entry: pro·fes·sor
Pronunciation: pr&-'fe-s&r
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : one that professes , avows, or declares
2 a : a faculty member of the highest academic rank at an institution of higher education b : a teacher at a university, college, or sometimes secondary school c : one that teaches or professes special knowledge of an art, sport, or occupation requiring skill
- pro·fes·so·ri·al /"prO-f&-'sOr-E-&l, "prä-, -'sor-/ adjective
- pro·fes·so·ri·al·ly /-E-&-lE/ adverb
- pro·fes·sor·ship /pr&-'fe-s&r-"ship/ noun