Pressure shooting

[loki09789]

"And in that movie...they show Dan Innosanto hacking up cops in a scenario. I say that the cops were either: a.set up for failure and/or b. incorporating bad tactics. I believe the scenario was a suspicious man in a closed building. The cops approached close to talk with the suspect and got whacked. Now either a. the scenario wasnt explained clearly (i.e.this is a burglar...theres a forced door... theres a stolen car out front....etc.) or b.the cops used poor tactics in this scenario by entering a possible burglary in progress call alone and trying to interview the suspect. Its an example of tactics being important, not the superiority of a weapon or style."

If I am reading this right the scene is from 'Surviving Edged Weapons' by Pallidin Press and D. Inosanto is posing as a suspicious person for the LEO to interview/detain effectively. The point of the video/scenario is to train LEO's/Civlians of the lethality and speed that a knife attack can be delivered by.

The issue that we are discussing is our opinions about which is the better self defense weapon. I agree whole heartedly that weapons are not as important as good tactics, but the point was not about training/tactics but weapon comparison.

 

[MJS]

At grappling range, if there is no time for deployment, both weapons become a liabilty, because now the issue of weapon retention comes into play. You will have to devote some of your fighting assests to preotecting/retaining the weapon. BUT, if the knife is deployed at grappling range, the threat of hurting yourself is higher than with a gun simply because of the grip control of a pistol over a knife. Both weapons can be used to hit, but the damage of a knife at this range will not "STOP" the attacker as quicly as the damage caused by the pistol, I am talking complete range of possibility here NOT the stopping power of cal. or the opponents ability to fight on. Side by side, the gun has more potential stopping power than a knife will ever have.

Sure, both weapons can be used to hit, and I agree with that. With a gun, if your finger is on that trigger, you also run the risk of getting it broke if the guy is able to do a successful disarm. Again, even in close range, the fact remains that the gun still has to be pointing at the guy in order for it to be 100% effective. Many times, its the multiple hits that take the toll with the knife. Sure the gun has better stopping power, but in close, I have to go with the knife.

Working out the max effective range, the knife - as an effective fighting weapon - stops at physcial contact range. The pistol continues to be effective at farther ranges, thus allowing the user to have more time and distance.

Agreed.

Your point about what you have seen is different from what is possible for realistic, solid SD pistol training.

And how many people actually go that extra step???

Your question about if I would use a knife to defend my family or loved ones, He** yes, but if there were a choice between gun or knife, which would you choose? What would you tell to a 5' petite woman if she asked you which weapon was the best choice for her? I would say gun.

And just like most weapons that women carry, they are usually kept where??? In her purse. Thats like when I hear guys say, "Hell, I'd just shoot him!" I say to that, "OK, well where is your gun now?" The answer----well, its in my truck. Or its at home. Well...What the hell good is it gonna do you there???? If anything I'd have her use her keys as a weapon. Those are already in her hand, or at least they should be, rather than fumble for them when shes already at her car.

Any weapon has to be part of a total SD system. Students are responsible for their training, and there are crappy students in any school. But, weapon vs weapon comparison only, the gun wins for me.

Well, everybody is going to have their weapon of choice. I like the knife because I train in the FMA. Its simple to use, very effective and doesnt require a huge amount of skill to use.

Mike

 

[MJS]

"And in that movie...they show Dan Innosanto hacking up cops in a scenario. I say that the cops were either: a.set up for failure and/or b. incorporating bad tactics. I believe the scenario was a suspicious man in a closed building. The cops approached close to talk with the suspect and got whacked. Now either a. the scenario wasnt explained clearly (i.e.this is a burglar...theres a forced door... theres a stolen car out front....etc.) or b.the cops used poor tactics in this scenario by entering a possible burglary in progress call alone and trying to interview the suspect. Its an example of tactics being important, not the superiority of a weapon or style."

If I am reading this right the scene is from 'Surviving Edged Weapons' by Pallidin Press and D. Inosanto is posing as a suspicious person for the LEO to interview/detain effectively. The point of the video/scenario is to train LEO's/Civlians of the lethality and speed that a knife attack can be delivered by.

The issue that we are discussing is our opinions about which is the better self defense weapon. I agree whole heartedly that weapons are not as important as good tactics, but the point was not about training/tactics but weapon comparison.

Agreed!! Even though the topic is about which weapon is better for SD, the fact remains that the knife is often under-estimated, and IMO, this tape shows a good job of that!

Mike

 

[Tgace]

True. But how can you tell if the suspect is going to be armed?

Sometimes he has one in his hand, sometimes radio tells me that the suspect is armed, sometimes the weapon is close by.

Well, I'm not sure of the quality of the movie..I didnt script it, I just watched it. IMO, the point that they were showing is that the gun with the knife closed the distance at a quicker pace. The suspect was advancing forward, which in turn gave the LEO one more thing to do in addition to taking out the gun, aiming on that moving target and finally shooting.

Thats whats known as the 21'rule or the Tueller Drill. It shows how an armed subject can close in on an unarmed person before they can access a weapon and deploy it. That drill goes for any weapon not only knife vs. gun.

I agree to a point. In the movie, it was showing a guy (Inosanto) who has exceptional knife training. I dont think though that you need to be on his level to use a knife effectively. Even if you watch prison movies...and yeah, its still a movie, but the idea is still there. Its amazing as to how quick these guys can take someone out with a shank.

Agreed...but its shows the tactical superiority of ambush, not the tecnical superiority of a weapon system.

My point was on the part where you said Legally Justified. I realize that a gun is part of the package with a LEO. However, the rules dont change for them. They still have to be legally justified in using that gun just like a civilian would. I'm sure that after countless wrongfull shootings, that would be the reason for the less lethal weapons that many depts. use today.

Mike

Yes, but I contend that the gun gives you a better chance of ending a situation without having to use it than a knife does.

 

[Tgace]

If I am reading this right the scene is from 'Surviving Edged Weapons' by Pallidin Press and D. Inosanto is posing as a suspicious person for the LEO to interview/detain effectively. The point of the video/scenario is to train LEO's/Civlians of the lethality and speed that a knife attack can be delivered by.

Well, in that case I say "welcome to police work". If the other guy beats your OODA cycle and decides to draw any weapon you are in a world of $%!^. He could have whipped out a sawed off 12 ga. with as much success.

 

[loki09789]

Agreed!! Even though the topic is about which weapon is better for SD, the fact remains that the knife is often under-estimated, and IMO, this tape shows a good job of that!

Mike

I would agree that the general public and MArtists can be guilty of underestimating the effectiveness of a knife, but relative to a gun, it loses the superiority battle for me.

The scenario only shows that D. Inosanto is better skilled as an ambusher and is a master of his weapon relative to the LEO walking into the scenario. Remember, D.Inosanto - that the point of video production - has spent far more man hours training his chosen weapon and tactics than the LEO walking into the scenario - his role is as teacher because he is the master. If it were a CONTEST between a veteran cop/firearms/defensive tactics instructor and D. Inosanto, I would be interested in seeing the results.

 

[OULobo]

Interesting debate. I love how all the debates here seem to end up in a this vs. that form. Seems to me that the whole thing boils down to a firearm having the advantage of being a ranged weapon and not requiring much strength or, I to say it, training to be effective. I do think that a knife is easier to conceal, more acceptable to society, faster to deploy, more versitel(sp) and even more safe.

 

[MJS]

I would agree that the general public and MArtists can be guilty of underestimating the effectiveness of a knife, but relative to a gun, it loses the superiority battle for me.

The scenario only shows that D. Inosanto is better skilled as an ambusher and is a master of his weapon relative to the LEO walking into the scenario. Remember, D.Inosanto - that the point of video production - has spent far more man hours training his chosen weapon and tactics than the LEO walking into the scenario - his role is as teacher because he is the master. If it were a CONTEST between a veteran cop/firearms/defensive tactics instructor and D. Inosanto, I would be interested in seeing the results.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm seeing this as you're saying that the only reason Inosanto 'won' so to speak, is because he is a master at using the knife??

Mike

 

[MJS]

Interesting debate. I love how all the debates here seem to end up in a this vs. that form. Seems to me that the whole thing boils down to a firearm having the advantage of being a ranged weapon and not requiring much strength or, I to say it, training to be effective. I do think that a knife is easier to conceal, more acceptable to society, faster to deploy, more versitel(sp) and even more safe.

A gun doesnt require much training??? Requires more training than a knife does.

Mike

 

[Tgace]

Interesting debate. I love how all the debates here seem to end up in a this vs. that form. Seems to me that the whole thing boils down to a firearm having the advantage of being a ranged weapon and not requiring much strength or, I to say it, training to be effective. I do think that a knife is easier to conceal, more acceptable to society, faster to deploy, more versitel(sp) and even more safe.

I can agree with most of that up to the "more acceptable" part. I think a hacked up BG could go worse for you than a BG shot by a legally owned gun.

 

[MJS]

Sometimes he has one in his hand, sometimes radio tells me that the suspect is armed, sometimes the weapon is close by.

Then again, thats a luxury. Unfortunately there are many times when they are walking into an unknown situation.

Agreed...but its shows the tactical superiority of ambush, not the tecnical superiority of a weapon system.

True. Then again, any time a cop goes to a call, the risk of ambush is always there.


mike

 

[MJS]

I can agree with most of that up to the "more acceptable" part. I think a hacked up BG could go worse for you than a BG shot by a legally owned gun.

You're right. It probably wouldnt look too good in court. But did those NYPD officers have to fill that guy with bullet holes?? I'm pretty sure that was NY, but regardless of where it took place, the fact remains that that guy took multiple gun shots.

Mike

 

[Tgace]

Seems to me that the whole thread has taken a turn...It started out as a "how do you train to shoot under pressure" thread I thought. But I dont mind if you dont mind....as long as it remains friendly ill take a this vs. that discussion.

 

[MJS]

Seems to me that the whole thread has taken a turn...It started out as a "how do you train to shoot under pressure" thread I thought. But I dont mind if you dont mind....as long as it remains friendly ill take a this vs. that discussion.

LOL! Yeah, I know, it did take quite the turn. Then again, most threads on here do that!!! I guess I was the one who made it take the turn. Where was i going with that first post I made??? Just used that past thread on a different forum as a basis. That thread was solely about gun vs. knife and whats the better weapon. Seems to me that the majority of people who shoot, only do so under no stress. You're LEO and military are in a different category due to the nature of the job. However, if someone was looking to use the gun as a SD weapon, IMO, having some stress is a good thing. I guess that is how the knife thing came into play here.

I dont mind either, though, like I said, it did get off track. The thread on the other forum went on for more than 10 pages!!!

Again, which ever way this one goes, is fine with me!

Mike

 

[loki09789]

So, if I'm reading this correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm seeing this as you're saying that the only reason Inosanto 'won' so to speak, is because he is a master at using the knife??

Mike

No, I am saying that Inosanto 'won' because he was a master of his chosen weapon AND tactics. Again, weapon vs. weapon, all other things being equal, the gun is the superior weapon.

Like I said, he is a master (referring to understanding and application of his art/weapon) within the scenario acting as an instructor to teach students (in this case LEO) who are less skilled than he with their art/weapon system. This does not make the knife superior as a weapon. It does mean that D.Inosanto is better skilled at using it effectively than the LEO in the scenario. They are there to learn from mistakes, he is there to expose good and bad tactical choices on their part. If he 'won' it was based on skill.

 

[Tgace]

Then again, thats a luxury. Unfortunately there are many times when they are walking into an unknown situation.




True. Then again, any time a cop goes to a call, the risk of ambush is always there.


mike

All absolutely true....thats why police are focusing on tactics these days. There is no weapon that will give you victory every time. You try to get a position of advantage, stay alert and take control. Sometimes its just a $@!& sandwitch and you have to take a bite....you do the best you can.

 

[Tgace]

LOL! Yeah, I know, it did take quite the turn. Then again, most threads on here do that!!! I guess I was the one who made it take the turn. Where was i going with that first post I made??? Just used that past thread on a different forum as a basis. That thread was solely about gun vs. knife and whats the better weapon. Seems to me that the majority of people who shoot, only do so under no stress. You're LEO and military are in a different category due to the nature of the job. However, if someone was looking to use the gun as a SD weapon, IMO, having some stress is a good thing. I guess that is how the knife thing came into play here.

I dont mind either, though, like I said, it did get off track. The thread on the other forum went on for more than 10 pages!!!

Again, which ever way this one goes, is fine with me!

Mike

:asian:

 

[Akula]

It seems that regardless of your weapon of choice, your situational awareness, and your knowledge of your weapon will help determine your actions. To increase that situational awareness for yourself, training in different scenarios, in different settings would be beneficial. At a shooting range that's being built near me, they are installing a two story, tactical shoot house, complete with low light cameras, and reconfigurable walls. I'm not in law enforcement or the military, but I enjoy shooting and I can't wait to take the classes there. Unfortunately, a lot of people once they buy a gun and shoot a few rounds with it, think they know how to effectively use it, and don't seek out items like this.

 

[loki09789]

"Seems to me that the majority of people who shoot, only do so under no stress. You're LEO and military are in a different category due to the nature of the job. However, if someone was looking to use the gun as a SD weapon, IMO, having some stress is a good thing."

Most, if not all of the people I know who shoot regularly use stress/scenario training to prep for their chosen shooting venue. I would say that it is the same as the 'pressure' drills of FMA/MA training like sparring and the like. You have to simulate - within safety measures - the type of application you are expecting to honestly be confident that you could be effective. Regardless of weapon or empty hand tools, training principles of devoting the right precentage of training to technical skill/tactical/strategic applications are important to the complete and appropriate training at each skill level.

 

[loki09789]

It seems that regardless of your weapon of choice, your situational awareness, and your knowledge of your weapon will help determine your actions. To increase that situational awareness for yourself, training in different scenarios, in different settings would be beneficial. At a shooting range that's being built near me, they are installing a two story, tactical shoot house, complete with low light cameras, and reconfigurable walls. I'm not in law enforcement or the military, but I enjoy shooting and I can't wait to take the classes there. Unfortunately, a lot of people once they buy a gun and shoot a few rounds with it, think they know how to effectively use it, and don't seek out items like this.

Segue back to the original point! Beautifully done. I think your point about casual or hobby shooters is true for a lot of Martial Arts disciplines. There are people in non ballistic MA's that don't understand the full range of effectiveness or application of their techniques because they are 'floor masters' just like there are 'range experts' in the shooting world.

I wonder if MJS could offer some knife drills/scenarios that he uses and we could compare or even steal the principles being applied to shooting drills - or even find a way of combining the drills to create a continuum response that incoporates both weapons and tactical goals.