Pre-aggresion response

[newtothe dark]

In a thread on another forum the concept of pre-agression came meaning you get the felling of danger and react. Kreth brought up the legal aspects of this and I started to continue with it and thought it might make a decent thread discusion. I realise the godan test is a test of this "feeling" before action or intent (something like that not even close to that yet) so you have this felling and you respond but since it preceeds the inital action that now makes you the aggresor legally. What is everyones thoughts.

P.S. Flame away if needed I love a good BBQ hehe

 

[newGuy12]

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

He who hesitates meditates, in a horizontal position.

1) Get in a fighting stance, with the palms outward, and say with a loud voice "I'm not looking for trouble, please leave me alone!"

2) If they get closer, you've got a new dancing partner now. Make it a quick dance.

 

[theletch1]

The legal ramifications are many. Here's a thread you might check out to help you with your question.

And don't worry about BBQs. This is the friendliest MA board on the net, after all.

 

[Bigshadow]

so you have this felling and you respond but since it preceeds the inital action that now makes you the aggresor legally.

Although, I have not yet taken the godan test, I don't think it works quite like that based on my conversations with those that have (my instructors) and my own experiences in the real world. I think it all happens in an a very short instance of time, not something that occurs where one goes "Oh... I have this feeling that someone is going to hurt me, so I will attack them first". I believe it is like ukemi, when one falls or has to receive the ground, they do it without conscious thought, it just happens in an instant as if the body has a mind of it's own. That is how I believe it happens. In fact, I believe the attack is already under way when it happens, just their body hasn't moved yet, but the attacker has already committed to the attack with mind and spirit, and the body is about to follow.

I believe what you described is something entirely different. I believe that which you described is an analytical conscious thought process that could lead one into legal problems. One is acting within the moment and the other is premeditated action.

 

[Kreth]

I believe what you described is something entirely different. I believe that which you described is an analytical conscious thought process that could lead one into legal problems. One is acting within the moment and the other is premeditated action.

Let me give an example, similar to the "pre-emptive kicking" being discussed in the other thread.
I was training a new bouncer, so he was basically shadowing me around the bar. In the middle of calmly asking a drunken moro--er, inebriated patron to leave the premises, I suddenly stepped in, wrapped him up and ran him out the door. As we moved to the door, the beer bottle that he had been planning to swat me with fell to the floor.
Afterwards, the new guy asked me to explain what happened, and the best I could tell him was that something about the guy's body language had made me react.
Now if I had, say, drilled him in the throat, even though he was planning to hit me with the beer bottle, I could be in legal trouble, especially if the witness that saw me move first didn't happen to see the beer bottle drop.

 

[Bigshadow]

Now if I had, say, drilled him in the throat, even though he was planning to hit me with the beer bottle, I could be in legal trouble, especially if the witness that saw me move first didn't happen to see the beer bottle drop.

Cool story! But correct me if I am wrong, you acted in the moment, you didn't make a conscious decision to wrap him up versus punch him or something else, or did you consciously make the decision?

 

[Bigshadow]

Afterwards, the new guy asked me to explain what happened, and the best I could tell him was that something about the guy's body language had made me react.

I see what you are getting at, I was thinking in terms of as if he had started the attack (but before the body started moving type of thing). Also, your heart, disposition, location, and duties has alot of influence on how one would handle those sorts of situations.

 

[newtothe dark]

Yes and action within the proportions of the moment also has to be in play. These are the things we build as we do the millions of repetions of the different wasa so that as our thoughts in act or muscles or waking mind processes afterward "why" because that is a much slower thought process than the "do". Is that kind of what your saying in my own mixed up crazy words?

 

[Bigshadow]

Yes and action within the proportions of the moment also has to be in play. These are the things we build as we do the millions of repetions of the different wasa so that as our thoughts in act or muscles or waking mind processes afterward "why" because that is a much slower thought process than the "do". Is that kind of what your saying in my own mixed up crazy words?

I think so... :lfao:

 

[jks9199]

Let me give an example, similar to the "pre-emptive kicking" being discussed in the other thread.
I was training a new bouncer, so he was basically shadowing me around the bar. In the middle of calmly asking a drunken moro--er, inebriated patron to leave the premises, I suddenly stepped in, wrapped him up and ran him out the door. As we moved to the door, the beer bottle that he had been planning to swat me with fell to the floor.
Afterwards, the new guy asked me to explain what happened, and the best I could tell him was that something about the guy's body language had made me react.
Now if I had, say, drilled him in the throat, even though he was planning to hit me with the beer bottle, I could be in legal trouble, especially if the witness that saw me move first didn't happen to see the beer bottle drop.

The big thing there is that you were demonstrating a measured response; you started with verbal, and you recognized that words weren't going to work. Going by your training and experience, you percieved that an attack was imminent, and acted in a manner to control the person with minimum risk of injury to yourself, other patrons of the establishment, and the unwanted guest. While I'm not providing legal advice, I personally would view that explanation, or similar articulation, much better than "I don't know... something made me think..." And -- of course you want to articulate how the beer bottle fell from his hand; how many people drink a beer grabbing the bottle in a way that would let them hit you with it?

If you take a second afterwards, and mentally review what happened, you can often identify those cues that triggered your action. Or, in some cases, that you missed... I was on a domestic dispute with a partner once, and we missed several cues that the guy wasn't going to go along nicely until he backfisted my partner. (Yeah, that did lead to a high-velocity introduction of the suspect's face to his couch... lucky for him the couch was in the way or it'd have been the floor!)

And you can practice this in your training. Integrate articulation into scenario training or other exercises where people respond to pre-aggression signals.

 

[Kreth]

Cool story! But correct me if I am wrong, you acted in the moment, you didn't make a conscious decision to wrap him up versus punch him or something else, or did you consciously make the decision?

Yeah, it was definitely a reaction. If I'd taken the time to think about it, I would have taken a Coors Light to the temple... :lol:

 

[Kreth]

And -- of course you want to articulate how the beer bottle fell from his hand; how many people drink a beer grabbing the bottle in a way that would let them hit you with it?

Except I never saw the beer bottle, I heard it fit the floor as I was running him out of the bar. I just put 2 + 2 together after the fact.

If you take a second afterwards, and mentally review what happened, you can often identify those cues that triggered your action.

Well, I tend to see this kind of thing in a general sense. Not so much individual cues, but body language as a whole.