Power and Strength

[Kevin__Huang]

A more important question would be; if your Sensei said something and you didn't undersatnd, why didn't you just say that to him and ask him to explain?

I don't have enough time to ask him

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[jks9199]

Power is not Force. Power is Force * Velocity. Strength is not a poor substitute for power, it is an essential component of it.

If you really want to tear into the physics of it -- you're wrong. The simple equations for force don't apply to a punch, except very minimally. I can't break it down myself well, and it's already been done by others who have the background to do it right. We've even had a thread or three here about it...

But the OP wasn't really looking for a physics treatise. He was trying to make sense of what his instructor said. You've got my take on it... and I'll stand behind it. But I guarantee that someone with proper structure and technique will punch harder than someone much stronger, who lacks that structure or technique. In fact, I've felt punches that used very little strength to generate incredible power... The key is they harness all of the available strength and mass, and prevent loss of efficiency.

 

[Charlemagne]

If you really want to tear into the physics of it -- you're wrong. The simple equations for force don't apply to a punch, except very minimally. I can't break it down myself well, and it's already been done by others who have the background to do it right. We've even had a thread or three here about it...

No, I am not wrong. The technique that someone uses controls the velocity and the force that is applied to the target, to some extent, but power is still force*velocity. In addition, I have not shared my credentials because I don't want to sound like a self-absorbed jerk, but I have the background to do it right.

But the OP wasn't really looking for a physics treatise. He was trying to make sense of what his instructor said. You've got my take on it... and I'll stand behind it. But I guarantee that someone with proper structure and technique will punch harder than someone much stronger, who lacks that structure or technique. In fact, I've felt punches that used very little strength to generate incredible power... The key is they harness all of the available strength and mass, and prevent loss of efficiency.

Throwing out one equation where one variable is multiplied by the other is not a "physics treatise", it is imply answering the question. Having said that, of course technique is important. As I noted earlier in the thread, the ability to apply power in a given movement is related to technique, but at the end of the day, strength is still an essential component of power. A punch has relatively light mass moving at a very high velocity. So, it is high on the force-velocity curve, which is why it can generate high power that way. Your mistake is in thinking that strength does not influence this, it does. The amount of force that can be produced at a given velocity is a trainable characteristic, and the amount of force produced influences the manner in which the punch is accelerated.

 

[Balrog]

Strength is how much force you can apply with your muscles. Power is how fast you can apply that force. Mathematically, power = force x velocity.

Good old physics. I love telling the students "You thought you were just learning to kick and punch. Nobody said anything about learning physics, right?"

Martial arts touches all aspects of life.

 

[Paul_D]

I don't have enough time to ask him

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Fair enough.

 

[hoshin1600]

there is probably no way to effectively calculate a punch using Newtonian physics. there are just to many variables to include into the calculation. it would be easier to calculate the Higgs -Boson particle.
Newtonian physics formula that everyone tends to quote is designed for inanimate objects not a human being. most people quote either formula for ballistics or for propulsion systems. i am not saying these calculations are incorrect i am only saying that the total calculation would be by far longer to get any kind of meaningful answer. context is everything and quoting a ballistics formula is as useful as mens nipples. ,,,,they are there but ,,well you know....

 

[JowGaWolf]

then there is allways prancercise.

lol..Lions, tigers, and other big cats used to help keep stuff like that to a minimum.

 

[Charlemagne]

there is probably no way to effectively calculate a punch using Newtonian physics. there are just to many variables to include into the calculation. it would be easier to calculate the Higgs -Boson particle.
Newtonian physics formula that everyone tends to quote is designed for inanimate objects not a human being. most people quote either formula for ballistics or for propulsion systems. i am not saying these calculations are incorrect i am only saying that the total calculation would be by far longer to get any kind of meaningful answer. context is everything and quoting a ballistics formula is as useful as mens nipples. ,,,,they are there but ,,well you know....

Newtonian formulas are used regularly in biomechanics research, and yes, that is fine, depending on what you are trying to measure. It's done all the time with a combination for force platforms and camera systems, or even cable potentiometers.

We could certainly make things a bit more complex and use inverse dynamics to calculate each joint moment, but that isn't really necessary. We could also go another simple route and use the mass and the velocity to determine momentum and therefore the impulse that is applied. However, measuring force and velocity is relatively easy, and at the end of the day it is about what the punch is doing to whatever it is hitting. So, bottom line, there is nothing wrong with talking about power in relation to a punch and describing it mathematically.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I don't have enough time to ask him

How long does it take to ask him and have him answer?

 

[Kevin__Huang]

How long does it take to ask him and have him answer?

How long he will answer me doesn't matter. I just wanna go home at that time.

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[hoshin1600]

Newtonian formulas are used regularly in biomechanics research, and yes, that is fine, depending on what you are trying to measure. It's done all the time with a combination for force platforms and camera systems, or even cable potentiometers.

We could certainly make things a bit more complex and use inverse dynamics to calculate each joint moment, but that isn't really necessary. We could also go another simple route and use the mass and the velocity to determine momentum and therefore the impulse that is applied. However, measuring force and velocity is relatively easy, and at the end of the day it is about what the punch is doing to whatever it is hitting. So, bottom line, there is nothing wrong with talking about power in relation to a punch and describing it mathematically.

I have a feeling your reply is now purposely being a little pompous and trying to sound intelligent in order to make everyone think you are correct. You may very well be the smartest guy in the room but studies on punching force varies and as far as I can tell nothing has been conclusive.

 

[hoshin1600]

**WARNING **
Sensitive viewers may find the following conversation will make your brain hurt. In some extreme cases your brain may explode.

So to recap,
(Wiki)
"a force is any interaction that, when unopposed, will change the motion of an object. In other words, a force can cause an object with mass to change its velocity (which includes to begin moving from a state of rest), i.e., to accelerate. Force can also be described by intuitive concepts such as a push or a pull. A force has both magnitude and direction, making it a vector quantity. It is measured in the SI unit of newtons and represented by the symbol F.

The original form of Newton's second law states that the net force acting upon an object is equal to the rate at which its momentum changes with time. If the mass of the object is constant, this law implies that the acceleration of an object is directly proportional to the net force acting on the object, is in the direction of the net force, and is inversely proportional to the mass of the object"
F=M V. Or is it. F=M*V or F=M*A
is your position that velocity is the primary factor?
P=M V. So is force and momentum the same thing? Or does force create momentum?

Velocity is easy to measure. How do you calculate mass? Is it the arm it self? (cut it off and throw it at the guy) or do you figure in the delivery system as well?

 

[Kevin__Huang]

**WARNING **
Sensitive viewers may find the following conversation will make your brain hurt. In some extreme cases your brain may explode.

So to recap,
(Wiki)
"a force is any interaction that, when unopposed, will change the motion of an object. In other words, a force can cause an object with mass to change its velocity (which includes to begin moving from a state of rest), i.e., to accelerate. Force can also be described by intuitive concepts such as a push or a pull. A force has both magnitude and direction, making it a vector quantity. It is measured in the SI unit of newtons and represented by the symbol F.

The original form of Newton's second law states that the net force acting upon an object is equal to the rate at which its momentum changes with time. If the mass of the object is constant, this law implies that the acceleration of an object is directly proportional to the net force acting on the object, is in the direction of the net force, and is inversely proportional to the mass of the object"
F=M V. Or is it. F=M*V or F=M*A
is your position that velocity is the primary factor?
P=M V. So is force and momentum the same thing? Or does force create momentum?

Velocity is easy to measure. How do you calculate mass? Is it the arm it self? (cut it off and throw it at the guy) or do you figure in the delivery system as well?

I'm pretty sure that I don't learn this in my science class

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