Poomsae principles?

Gnarlie

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What principles exist when performing Poomsae or the motions of Taekwondo?

Do you teach general principles, or not? If so, what principles do you teach?

Are there some principles that we could call hard and fast rules?

 

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Great question. Although my art is geared toward a set of principles, it will be interesting to hear how they line up with other arts.
 

puunui

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I think the overall principle, at least for kukkiwon poomsae, is that the movements should feel natural. No contortion like movements, stretched out stances, etc.
 

mastercole

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What principles exist when performing Poomsae or the motions of Taekwondo?
The Poomsaeseon, or Poomsae Line would be a principle. The philosophical and physical application of the Samilshingo [ . _ l ], a concept containing Won, Bang Kak, the same concept found in the dobok top, pants and belt, all from the Yeokhak theory would be a principle. You can check into those, start with the I-Ching.
Do you teach general principles, or not? If so, what principles do you teach?
Those I listed above.

Are there some principles that we could call hard and fast rules?
Yes, those I listed above. If you study these, it will reveal a lot.
 

granfire

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do it like you mean it...
have a knife hand be a knife hand, not a spork...have a block have meaning, so you don't hit yourself as you bounce of an obstacle....achieve more than a tickle with a punch....
 

mastercole

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This might help a bit more. Won Bang Gak (samilshingo) is the basis for the design of the Hanbok. It is also the basis for the shape of the vowel's in Hangul, as designed by scholars from the house of worthies, charged by Sejong to develop Hangul. Originally 28 letters in all :)

Every single physical movement in Taegeuk Poomsae, including junbee functions in accordance with the principle of balance, center of gravity and power ruled by the samilshingo. All defined, and guided by a "point", "plane" and "verticle line".

A poomsae practitioner, once they have learned the basic pattern, line and technique of the Taegeuk Poomsae should then begin to focus on how their body moves in accord with the center of gravity, balance of stance, and power stroke. The Samilshingo has a principle rule of movement, one that follows the Yeokhak theory that plays out in every step, every block, strike, etc. The samilshingo relates the shifting of power and it's relation to stability and instability and exactly when and how that interacts with the timing of all movements.

In this way, Poomsae has self defense value, a value that matches exactly to the principles of movement also found in the original intentions of Shihap Kyorugi (Olympic Sparring)
 

FieldDiscipline

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"There is a principle which pertains to all forms, but particularly Black Belt ones. If it is fully understood and is incorporated into the practicing of forms, it becomes a part of the way the Tae Kwon Doist moves and is of great help to him as a fighter. It creates the essential element of balance. The principle is that, when the body is moved in any direction, it ought to be moved as if the center of gravity alone is being moved.

-Grandmaster Duk Sung Son
 
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Gnarlie

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Thank you all. It's interesting that the physical and philosophical principles of Taekwondo are so intertwined - to the point that some assert that one cannot learn the physical aspects of Taekwondo without also learning the philosophical principles. Learning by doing, so to speak.

mastercole - I'm already making progress with the I Ching as per your earlier recommendations, sir. It is very interesting reading. Not managed to get hold of a copy of Kyong Myong Lee's 'Taekwondo Philosophy' yet, as per Cynthia Mojab's recommendation - seems to be quite rare. I'm immersing myself in this, hence asking this question here to get a few different perspectives - I want to see what people's training experiences have led them to.

Here's another question which I think is interesting, I'd love to hear opinions:

If you could offer a student a few pieces of advice that would improve their overall Taekwondo performance, what would they be?

That could mean advice regarding typical pitfalls, for example. Or how to work with 2 hands for all and techniques. I'm interested to see whether instructors here prefer to tweak individual techniques, or do they try to offer general advice that will improve 'grouped' techniques...
 

seasoned

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I think the overall principle, at least for kukkiwon poomsae, is that the movements should feel natural. No contortion like movements, stretched out stances, etc.

do it like you mean it...
have a knife hand be a knife hand, not a spork...have a block have meaning, so you don't hit yourself as you bounce of an obstacle....achieve more than a tickle with a punch....

This might help a bit more. Won Bang Gak (samilshingo) is the basis for the design of the Hanbok. It is also the basis for the shape of the vowel's in Hangul, as designed by scholars from the house of worthies, charged by Sejong to develop Hangul. Originally 28 letters in all :)

Every single physical movement in Taegeuk Poomsae, including junbee functions in accordance with the principle of balance, center of gravity and power ruled by the samilshingo. All defined, and guided by a "point", "plane" and "verticle line".

A poomsae practitioner, once they have learned the basic pattern, line and technique of the Taegeuk Poomsae should then begin to focus on how their body moves in accord with the center of gravity, balance of stance, and power stroke. The Samilshingo has a principle rule of movement, one that follows the Yeokhak theory that plays out in every step, every block, strike, etc. The samilshingo relates the shifting of power and it's relation to stability and instability and exactly when and how that interacts with the timing of all movements.

In this way, Poomsae has self defense value, a value that matches exactly to the principles of movement also found in the original intentions of Shihap Kyorugi (Olympic Sparring)

-Grandmaster Duk Sung Son "There is a principle which pertains to all forms, but particularly Black Belt ones. If it is fully understood and is incorporated into the practicing of forms, it becomes a part of the way the Tae Kwon Doist moves and is of great help to him as a fighter. It creates the essential element of balance. The principle is that, when the body is moved in any direction, it ought to be moved as if the center of gravity alone is being moved.

The principles of my art are taught through the practice of a specific kata, that is geared toward harmonizing breath with technique, movement with balance as we move the body as one unit, while we maintain proper body alignment regarding structure. Thus producing fluid movements with substantial power. I highlighted above a connection between all posts that form what I see as a pattern within different arts.
 
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Gnarlie

Gnarlie

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The principles of my art are taught through the practice of a specific kata, that is geared toward harmonizing breath with technique, movement with balance as we move the body as one unit, while we maintain proper body alignment regarding structure. Thus producing fluid movements with substantial power. I highlighted above a connection between all posts that form what I see as a pattern within different arts.

Thanks for your thoughts, appreciate it. What's the art?

I worry that my sometimes overly analytical brain forces me to seek out meaning where there sometimes isn't meaning, and things just....are. I think there is real depth of meaning to be found here both in Taekwondo and in eastern philosophy. I suspect it might run into other arts too, but it's going to take me some serious time before I'm able to understand and express it in a coherent way. It's fun looking into it though.
 

seasoned

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Thanks for your thoughts, appreciate it. What's the art?

I worry that my sometimes overly analytical brain forces me to seek out meaning where there sometimes isn't meaning, and things just....are. I think there is real depth of meaning to be found here both in Taekwondo and in eastern philosophy. I suspect it might run into other arts too, but it's going to take me some serious time before I'm able to understand and express it in a coherent way. It's fun looking into it though.

Okinawan GoJu Ryu.

There is always a WHY, and a HOW. No matter what your rank, always have the mind of a white belt, and seek and find.

MT is a great resource to help you on you're journey.

Good luck, Wes
 

mastercole

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If you could offer a student a few pieces of advice that would improve their overall Taekwondo performance, what would they be?

That could mean advice regarding typical pitfalls, for example. Or how to work with 2 hands for all and techniques. I'm interested to see whether instructors here prefer to tweak individual techniques, or do they try to offer general advice that will improve 'grouped' techniques...

The best advise I give to individuals or groups is the same, get your information from as close to the source as possible.
 

puunui

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If you could offer a student a few pieces of advice that would improve their overall Taekwondo performance, what would they be?

Study with the best possible teachers that you can find. When searching for the best teachers, don't limit yourself to your area only. If there are no high level teachers in your area, consider moving to where there are high level teachers.
 
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Gnarlie

Gnarlie

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The best advise I give to individuals or groups is the same, get your information from as close to the source as possible.

Study with the best possible teachers that you can find. When searching for the best teachers, don't limit yourself to your area only. If there are no high level teachers in your area, consider moving to where there are high level teachers.

I'm very fortunate to have 2 great teachers, one in England and one in Germany. They have very different backgrounds and very different perspectives, but both adhere to the standards of the Kukkiwon. It's astounding the degree to which they teach the same things. My English instructor cut his teeth in the early seventies in England, studying under one of the first western black belts in England out of Korea. My instructor in Germany is a WTF / Kukkiwon certified trainer with strong active links to the Kukkiwon. It was amazing how little I had to change my form when I moved.

Your suggestions are also the reason why I'm here asking these questions on MT. You guys are way closer to the source than I am. Gaining some of your insight helps me a lot, so thank you.
 

Manny

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What I try to teach and want from my studentents when performing taeguks ir:

1.-Good solid stances.
2.-Good solid blocks,punches and kicks.
3.-Good timing.
4.-Good breathing and good kiaps!
5.-Martiality.
6.-Attitude.

Maybe I could go on and on but I think that attitude and martiality takes a great portion of poomsae.

It really piss me off see bad tecnikes with a lazy atitude when performing poomsae, maybe the student is not super capable of performing a nice high side kick but if the studentes show attitude and martialiy the poomsae will be good.

Manny
 

mastercole

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What I try to teach and want from my studentents when performing taeguks ir:

1.-Good solid stances.
2.-Good solid blocks,punches and kicks.
3.-Good timing.
4.-Good breathing and good kiaps!
5.-Martiality.
6.-Attitude.

Maybe I could go on and on but I think that attitude and martiality takes a great portion of poomsae.

It really piss me off see bad tecnikes with a lazy atitude when performing poomsae, maybe the student is not super capable of performing a nice high side kick but if the studentes show attitude and martialiy the poomsae will be good.

Manny

What about instability, it that principle found throughout Poomsae?
 
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Gnarlie

Gnarlie

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Me too. I have some ideas about stability / instability, and how they work together, but I could be way off the mark!
 
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