Pocket Stick usefullness and tactics

[MJS]

I've worked with many people who have extensive grappling exprience. No one could find any grappling value to a pocketstick; it gives no extra leverage or control and hurts your ability to grip. It could be useful to try and hit someone with, but I was trying to test the claim that it improved the ability to do submissions by increasing the very things it hinders. There is no grip done using a pocketstick that can't be done better without it, and it is too short to give leverage like a club or stick can.

I can only echo what Don Roley said in his post. Working with someone, regardless of their grappling experience is not going to do any good for you, if they themselves do not have training in using the stick.

 

[MJS]

Simple. Both my experience trying to use it and the actual techniques shown to me by those who have trained with it have led me to conclude it has no use in grappling or joint locks. The claim is being made that it increases leverage and control. It absolutely cannot do these things.

If anyone can show me proof otherwise, I'll be happy to admit I am wrong. Unless that happens I am going to go with what experience has shown me and call bull **** on this one.

Again, I'll repeat what both I and Don have already said, however, you keep failing to see this point. Just because you have not had much luck with this, does not mean that someone else will have the same results as you. It appears that you and a number of others, do not take the time to seriously look into something. You're a) working with someone who has no training in them, b) working with someone who has limited training in them, c) watching a tape/dvd or looking at pics. and using that to determine that they're ineffective or d) all of the above.

How can you go on your experience and get an accurate description, when it appears your experience is limited at best?

 

[MJS]

YES YES YES!!!

And throwing 4 palm strikes in 1.5 sec that thing will fly off and have just as good a chance as hitting you in the eye as it has of hitting the other person.

I’m sure that it works real well as a Kata Krappy thing.

And this is contributing to the discussion how??? If you have nothing constructive to say, perhaps you shouldn't say anything at all!

Mike

 

[MJS]

Thirdly, this thread was not dedicated to grappling (exclusively)

I was starting to wonder the same thing myself. Perhaps I may have missed it, but I didn't see anything in the initial thread about using this during grappling. It seems to me that certian people are using this excuse in an attempt to derail the thread and try to prove the ineffectiveness of a tool, which in fact is very usefull, but some refuse to open their eyes to what others with more experience than they, have to say about the stick.

There is a saying about assumptions ....

Yes, isn't that the truth!

 

[WingChun Lawyer]

Because something with a blade is a deadly weapon. You can only pull and use it when you can show that you are in fear for your life. If you pull it otherwise, the least you are looking at is probably being charged with brandishing a weapon.

But impact weapons are not classified as leathal weapons just about everywhere. You are allowed to use it against unarmed attacks in most areas. Police use impact weapons against unarmed people just for not following orders but they can't use firearms or other leathal weapons like knives unless they can show that the only option they had was to kill the other guy or be killed in turn.

And in modern times, with small flashlights and such, you can carry them around and find lots of uses for them other than as a weapon. I carry a flashlight with me every day. Sometimes I leave the pepper spray at home because it is dead weight. But the surefire is with me pretty much every time I leave the house. And that means that it will be with me, and probably already in my hands, when someone starts looking like he is going to try something violent.

Don, I said it plainly in my post - in practical terms, if we completely disregard the law, is it worth the trouble to carry that thing instead of a knife or a switchblade?

Not everyone here lives in the USA. I am speaking from the point of view of someone who CAN carry a knife and use it if he believes his physical integrity is in danger.

So, I´ll repeat my question. Is it worth the trouble to carry that thing if the same amount of space/trouble/annoyance in your everyday routine could fit a switchblade or a pepper spray in its place?

 

[Makalakumu]

What's to type out. Occasionally some of us will bring a yawara, kubotan, etc and we'll go at it. Sometimes in a randori type format and other times we'll do multiple attacker type rush attacks, other times it'll be a bit more static and we'll work set techniques. Pretty much standard training, regardless, I do concur, that it doens't really look anything like some of the videos posted here.

Nick, could you describe some of the techniques? Do you have any pictures? Any video? It sounds like your instructor really knows how to apply this thing and your experience would be helpful in this discussion?

 

[Don Roley]

Don, I said it plainly in my post - in practical terms, if we completely disregard the law, is it worth the trouble to carry that thing instead of a knife or a switchblade?

Not everyone here lives in the USA. I am speaking from the point of view of someone who CAN carry a knife and use it if he believes his physical integrity is in danger.

So, I´ll repeat my question. Is it worth the trouble to carry that thing if the same amount of space/trouble/annoyance in your everyday routine could fit a switchblade or a pepper spray in its place?

My experience with living in Japan and coming from America seems to indicate that the attitude of the law is the same. You can only pull out a lethal weapon like a knife when you can show that your life is in danger. You can generally hit someone with a blunt object more often that you can show someone a knife and stay out of jail. I have no reason to assume that there is some place that you can use a weapon like a knife without showing this level of threat or one that would drag me to jail for having something like my surefire flashlight in my hand at any time.

And I carry a sure fire flashlight in my jacket pocket. I would avoid using something that was clearly made to be a weapon and served no other purpose. But I used my surefire in class tonight for some applications of tessenjutsu and it worked really well. I carry my surefire a lot more often than my pepper spray because outside of a fight the pepper spray is just dead weight. But the surefire is a helpfull thing to have.

 

[WingChun Lawyer]

Don, I am afraid you did not answer my question.

 

[shesulsa]

Don, I am afraid you did not answer my question.

Yes he did. Let's review together, shall we?

You can generally hit someone with a blunt object more often that you can show someone a knife and stay out of jail. I have no reason to assume that there is some place that you can use a weapon like a knife without showing this level of threat or one that would drag me to jail for having something like my surefire flashlight in my hand at any time.

When I read that I thought to myself, 'gee, it sounds like Don doesn't want to go to jail and that his argument is that if you use a knife you're more likely to go to jail,' which sentiment I happen to wholeheartedly agree with.

He further says,

And I carry a sure fire flashlight in my jacket pocket. I would avoid using something that was clearly made to be a weapon and served no other purpose.

and

I carry my surefire a lot more often than my pepper spray because outside of a fight the pepper spray is just dead weight.

When I read these I thought to myself, 'that means Don prefers to carry the surefire instead of a knife or pepper spray for the reasons he stated.'

So your question was:

Is it worth the trouble to carry that thing if the same amount of space/trouble/annoyance in your everyday routine could fit a switchblade or a pepper spray in its place?

Looks to me like the answer is yes.

 

[WingChun Lawyer]

I asked him to answer my question, considering no predetermined legal restriction is placed on carrying or using a knife.

I live in Brazil, and the law here allows me to carry any blade under 10 centimeters, and to use it as I see fit in legitimate defense of myself or of others.

I have no clue on the law in the USA, but in Brazil the law does not distinguish between "lethal weapons" and "non lethal weapons". You can go to jail if you over react in a self defense situation no matter what weapon you are using, but if you don´t over react (i.e. you use force proportional to the threat, in view of the means available to you at the time), you are OK, wether you used a pocket stick or a rocket launcher.

Don just mentioned the legal consequences in his country in order to support his arguments in favour of the pocket stick. He did not actually compare its efficiency to the efficiency presented by a pocket knife, specially since we consider both of those instruments present the same difficulty in carrying - AND the knife can be used for other things, not only self defense.

 

[bignick]

Nick, could you describe some of the techniques? Do you have any pictures? Any video? It sounds like your instructor really knows how to apply this thing and your experience would be helpful in this discussion?

Of course, the problem is, I'm not my instructor :wink:

I don't have any videos or pictures, I could try to give a couple examples later, but I have my shodan test tonight in jujutsu, so it may be a while.

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

I didn't mean to break any rules with my posts, I censored myself not realizing there was a filter. I didn't mean to sound impolite (since the sudafed regulations passed I have had trouble getting enough meth to keep me level headed :uhyeah.

I reason I brought up grappling was becasue several posts, as well as every site and video linked to this thread, made the claim that a pocketstick could improve the abiltiy to do joint locks. I don't doubt the claims about using one for striking, but I can not belive they are useful for grappling. As flawed as my testing methods may have been, no one has shown me any evidence to refute my position. I'll let the issue drop, but I would still like to see some examples of how a pocketstick can be effectively used in this way.

 

[RoninPimp]

No, not my experience.

Unless you want to say you were actually trained in its use by a skilled instructor and had techniques done on you while you made efforts to resist your experience is far short of mine. Two guys in a back yard playing with a stick is not even close IMO.

If you have not been shown what I have been shown then I can understand why you don't know how to use these things effectively. The trap is in thinking that just because you have never been shown effective stuff and don't know how to make things work, that everyone else is in the same boat as an untrained person like yourself. Rejecting something you have never been properly instructed in out of hand is a big, silly jump if you ask me.



No. That is merely your experience with the matter. I have had things reversed on me by people who were previously not in control by use of a short stick. Again, if you have not had the experience I have, I can understand why you think the way you do. But you should try to keep an open mind and not reject things just because you have never had a chance to properly learn what others have.

-Then please go into more detail with your experiances. I stand by what I said. It is a fundamental rule of grappling. Position over submission. If you are in control and then are reversed by someone using the little additional leverage provided by a pocket stick. Except for the occasional fluke, then you did something wrong. That doesn't mean the tool they used was superior.

 

[RoninPimp]

What's to type out. Occasionally some of us will bring a yawara, kubotan, etc and we'll go at it. Sometimes in a randori type format and other times we'll do multiple attacker type rush attacks, other times it'll be a bit more static and we'll work set techniques. Pretty much standard training, regardless, I do concur, that it doens't really look anything like some of the videos posted here.

-What I want to know are locks being applied succesfully with them? Are strikes with them so overwhelming that people have to stop?

 

[RoninPimp]

Thanks for the reply. So, if I'm reading this correctly, your experience is based fully on trial and error and no official training from someone with experience using this tool? If thats the case, how can you accurately have an understanding of it?


We're in agreement here.


Well, IMO, this can be said of every strike or kick.


If the chips were down that bad, I'd grab whatever I could to use.

Mike

-No, I don't have official training with a pocket stick under my belt. I have experamented as best I can. Very few people that claim they are effective have many details to share on why they think they're effective.

 

[RoninPimp]

IIRC, states with big Meth problems are starting to require them.

On topic:

I think BigNick's, MJS's and Don Roley's points are, well, on point. Those with formal, specific training in the use of SD sticks and lights for joint locks, etc. have found them very effective. Those without the training (or in my case, training that didn't stick, no pun intended), are less able to use them as grappling aids and more likely to pooh pooh their use.

The difference is; I wrote that I'm not a fan of them for grappling use because I am terrible at joint locks and, thus, cannot use them effectively at my current level of skill. Some others have said they don't like them - but are unwilling to admit the possibility that this is because they don't know how to use them!

-I am pretty adamant in my opinion that pocket sticks are useless for grappling. I will try to roll with one at some point. They just don't provide leverage enough like a longer stick would. Grappling is about leverage. I know grappling.

 

[RoninPimp]

Thats your mistake. It is like going to a boxer and asking them about adding kicking to what you do. They will tell you it is worthless due to what they do and their lack of experience with the subject matter. You need to go to someone who knows a decent style of kopojutsu or the like and ask them if it can help. Note that only about one in ten people that I know who say they know the art meet my standards as a decent practicioner.

There are specific techniques to use the stick. It is not like you lay out with taking a standard move and just holding the stick in your hand when you do it. The movements are based on the same moves in my art, but probably not what you do and there are things you need to do to make it Koppo specific.

-Grappling is grappling.

 

[RoninPimp]

I don't think you have trained with people who know what they are doing. I would urge you to keep an open mind instead of being so eager to reject something that has been proven as an effective weapon by many schools of martial arts in Japan. Just because you know no way to make something work does not mean that nobody knows how to make something work. Open your mind and seek new experiences rather than make such broad statements of rejection.

-In Koryu Jujitsu styles in Japan, the pocket stick is a minor weapon for LEO's. Not a civilian SD weapon.

 

[RoninPimp]

One more post before I shut up and wait for responses...

Grappling wit a pocket stick is relative to this thread because its effectiveness in grappling was stated as a benefit to carrying one. MGB and I were addressing those claims. Grappling with one is absolutely worthless imo. I will try to roll with one at some point like I've said. Striking with one? Maybe. Helping more than being a hindrence grappling? No way. Grappling is about position and leverage. A 6" stick doesn't help position and adds no leverage.

 

[MJS]

-No, I don't have official training with a pocket stick under my belt. I have experamented as best I can.

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions. You have worked with this, and have found your results, and have formed an opinion of the pocket stick. Many others have also worked with the pocket stick and have had different results. If some find value in it, thats fine. If others don't, thats fine too. I do feel that it is wrong to totally bash the weapon just because some have not had the same experience with it as others have.

Mike