Plz tell me about To Shin Do Home Study Course

SKB

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WOW! Why are we bashing on this fella again?

Some training is better then no training. In person training is always better.

What is that old says about "walking in someone's shoes for a mile"..... or some such?
 

GBlues

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Lets say $400.00 every 2 months which works out to $200.00 a month=$50.00 a week=about $10 a day.

Sure maybe he is this or that or whatever maybe we use for him. The point is its $400.00 what is the best way to use it to enhance the training. My opinion is if you are 8hrs from the source Japan then you might as well go there then spend $400.00 learning from a video.

Plenty of Youth hostels.

http://www.hihostels.com/dba/country-JP.en.htm#hostelling

It cost about 1500-3300 Yen which is about $15 to $33 a night real cheap.

He can take the kids with him. He can have a friend watch them. All these maybes are excuses.

Homestudy courses can build bad habits. So when you go to an actual Dojo instead of learning how to do things correctly the teacher is spending all the time breaking you out of your bad habits. Now you instead of learning at a normal or accelerated pace you are learning at a much slowler pace because of the conditioning of bad habits with learning by video.

I have read the horror stories on other forums you can try E-budo about having to get people out of bad habits due to video training.

If you think its good some beg to differ including me. I think class for a month in Japan is $30 it was not as it is in the states but maybe things have changed. He may not have an instructor in his area but its not like he is 2 days from the school or the school is alot of money.


It's annoying when people do not want to put in the effort of their training they say they love. I was making $6.50 an hour and I managed to save money and fly to Japan which took me about 18hr flight. This guy has $400 and is 8hrs away but no he want to take the easy way of video course?!

That may be a lot of money to him or someone else, especially in todays economy.
Kids these days make $8 flipping burgers I made $6.50 back in 2000 stop making excuses.



I am not rich I saved my money I made sacrifices but I should have compassion for someone who does not want to and take the easy video course way?

1 lesson every 6 months?? Thats like $66 a month $16 a week $2 a day with that kinda of sacrifice and commitment maybe learning from video is the best way because clearly that does not show any dedication to hard training in Japan or even with a live person.

Just for the record I sometimes had to choose between grocceries for the week or money to train(I ate lots of Ramen and vitamins) So maybe I am a little hard on people who do not make sacrifices and more excuses.

So basically what your saying is that because you did that, everybody else should do that, and your way is the best because you chose to eat non-nutritional food so that you could pay for your training. That is all well and good, but don't forget that a good nutritional breakfast is a part of a heart healthy day. :) Self-defense in my mind is not just about doing physical training, there does come a point where it's eat or train, and unfortunately if you don't eat you don't train, you starve. A start is better than nothing. Perhaps he will get the videos and find the value in having a live instructor, and find the desire because he liked what he saw on the videos. Perhaps he will become discouraged and quit. You don't know, I don't know, only the great gurus in the sky know. All I'm saying is stop discouraging people because you don't agree with the way people do things. Just because it doesn't work for you, or jive with your morals, or beliefs doesn't mean it's wrong, just means it's different. There are many paths to the same goal, some may take a harder road with more sacrifice, and yet others find a smoother path, but all lead to the same end. What does it matter how you get there so long as you get there. It's not about winning always, even when you know that you've lost, finish. SOmetimes there is more merit in losing and just finishing than winning, perhaps in the loss we learn something about ourselves that we never knew. It's not about the end result that matters it's about the journey getting there, and for each person it WILL be different.
 

JadecloudAlchemist

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So basically what your saying is that because you did that, everybody else should do that, and your way is the best because you chose to eat non-nutritional food so that you could pay for your training.
What I am sayiing is people use the Homestudy program as a crutch and an excuse for real training. I used my examples to show you that you don't need lots of money to train also I don't even drive yet I still found a way(friend drove me had to pay him off)




unfortunately if you don't eat you don't train, you starve.
I ate Ramen and Vitamins. For 2 weeks it didn't effect my body to much. Again it was an example to show you can save money for training if you really want it.

A start is better than nothing. Perhaps he will get the videos and find the value in having a live instructor
I thought that too when I bought the complete Liang style Bagua and thought I could learn from it. When I met my teacher and showed him my circle walking he said it was all wrong. See sometimes nothing is better than something.

All I'm saying is stop discouraging people because you don't agree with the way people do things. Just because it doesn't work for you, or jive with your morals, or beliefs doesn't mean it's wrong, just means it's different
I can give my opinion same as you can. I am not the only person who said go find an actual teacher. I gave examples to show anyone and anywhere can get live training they just make excuses and want the easy way out. If you are unwilling to find a way to train with a live teacher then maybe learning by video in your basement is the way for you.

There are many paths to the same goal, some may take a harder road with more sacrifice, and yet others find a smoother path, but all lead to the same end.
There is either it is done with a teacher or not with a teacher. Noone is saying videos as a supplement is bad but you got to at least get to a Dojo once a month for corrections.

I have trained in the Bujinkan and Genbukan and I can tell you, you can't learn it by video.
 

ToShinDoKa

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The benefits of a home-study course not withstanding (although, for the record, the Toshindo one appears to be set up with a support network, which makes it better than most), one thing I might point out HK is that if you are a member of the Toshindo organisation, then you may not be able to train in the Japanese schools if you make it over there.

The Bujinkan and Genbukan organisations are quite adamant about members of other Ninjutsu organsiations (including Toshindo) not being allowed to train in their dojo, just something to be aware of.


Very true and very VERY disappointing. :wah:

But yeah, if you did want to train with them, you could always just buy a membership. I used to hold membership w/ the IBD (international bujinkan dojo). Not that hard to get. :) Whenever I go to a new dojo, out of respect for their school and way, I wear a white belt.

1) to show that I'm a novice as far as in their method (and white belts tend to be more approachable and teachable, so others are more apt to help you compared to judging you).

2) to avoid having to go into detail about what I study or studied w/ those who I'm really not inclined to talk about it w/. (Going in w/ no crest on your gi and a white belt to learn about another art and the way it works is one of the most NINJA things I think a taijutsu practitioner of To-Shin Do or otherwise could do! LOL)

3) sadly, I admit, for the compliments. To-Shin Do has enhanced my ability to mimick and pick up the principles of other arts rather quickly, because To-Shin Do isn't ridgid and fixed like some arts out there, and encourages body fluidity and adaptation. So when I to the moves of their art (like when I tapped out a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practioner at a BJJ seminar last year) they're like: "Wow, for a beginner, you sure catch on quick!" Of course, they are far more skilled than I am in their discipline, but since they doubted me because of that belt color and the darkness of theirs, well...it's an awesome learning experience!

GO FOR IT! To Japan! Infiltrate the Bujinkan!
Just kidding:angel:
 

ToShinDoKa

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Yes... I agree with this, and would add if you show up at the Hombu, when you are questioned, and cannot produce a current Bujinkan Membership card, reference from your instructor, or tell them you are a Toshindo Home Study student, you may not be asked to leave, but you probably will not be welcomed and given good instruction either... And I'm not trying to be a jerk, that's just my understanding of how it tends to be there. I hear that from a number of people, and they questioned my instructor when he went last year, luckily he had his ducks in a row, and someone there who knew him to vouch for him. Typically they don't let every Tom, Dick, or Harry off the street come in.

Then again, I havn't been there yet, so everything I heard could be a lie, tho I would doubt that.


Again, that's a very sad realization.

I remember back when I trained in the Bujinkan how we read writings about how Hatsumi sensei was offering the teachings to everyone in the world, to unite it. Him being known as a man of integrity, I bet he still holds that view; so you've got to wonder why this is?

But this is a To-Shin Do thread, so I'll focus on that...
 

HKToshindo

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I started out with the long distance course. Then I flew to Japan and am here now.

Do not make my mistake. Not only do you ingrain habits before you can meet with a teacher that are hard to get rid of, but the habits Mr Hayes teaches are wrong according to all the teachers I have talked with here in Japan.

He has also been lying about his relationship with the Bujinkan and his amount of knowledge. He knows he was not a student and he claims and hints at teaching that he just never got from a real teacher.

I feel used. I know a lot of Toshindo students will not want to admit the truth. I was in their shoes. Their desire to learn is strong, but they also have an ego that says that they can learn from videos and an occasional seminar even thought Dr Hatsumi himself says you cannot learn ninjutsu from videos. I can see that I was controlled by my ego. I had to face it when it became clear that Mr Hayes was lying. It all seems to clear now, but I was so blind up until now.

I urge Toshindo home study students and those thinking about it to get away before you gain habits you cannot unlearn.
 

Chris Parker

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I posted this over at another thread where you made similar comments, thought I should add it here too...

Okay, friend, chill. If memory serves, you were originally here as a full devotee of Hayes and were yelling down the entire Bujinkan version of things, now you have gone to Japan and been given an alternate you are an absolute devotee of Hatsumi and yelling down Hayes and his organisation. Seriously, you need to find a balance which appears to be lacking...

Why were you so keen on Hayes being the real deal (for you)? You were stating that he was the absolute top Ninjutsu instructor and were going to learn, not from a teacher, but from his DVD Home Study Course. At that point, you had not visited a single class, as you said there were none near you, but were quite vehementally defending Hayes as the true faith. I would like to know what you based your assessment on? Just the books and articles?

You were advised that the Bujinkan and Toshindo organisations had some issues between them, with both giving versions of history which contradicted each other, and that if you decided to go with one (Toshindo), then that would most likely exclude you from the other. You have then gone to Japan, and seen exactly the same thing.

In Japan, you have met with instructors and students, including Hatsumi Sensei, who have given you a version which paints Hayes in a very different light to the one you already had him in. And this has given rise to some very angry feelings in you. Why? Hayes has presented the image to his students that he wants, Hatsumi is presenting the image to his students that he wants, both are (most likely) flawed and highly biased, in the end, it doesn't really matter. Go with the teacher you feel can help you most, and don't worry about the rest. Remember, Hatsumi has shown a habit of painting current students in very favourable colours, and then after they leave, saying that "they never really learnt anything, I never showed them anything, they were never here, they never really got it, etc". He did it with Hayes, with Brian McCarthy, even with Tanemura. The class after Tanemura left, Hatsumi got the group of teachers together to show them the "true" ninjutsu, which he had never shown before (to read between the lines, anyone who follows Tanemura will never really get the arts, because they were never taught while Tanmura was there).

This is not to denigrate Hatsumi or Hayes. Both have their agendas, and that is the normal way of things. The thing is not to take everything you hear as gospel, and not to get so consumed by the words of others that you base your own sense of worth (in the arts) on how you esteem them. They are just human, after all. Hatsumi and Hayes have both gotten quite rich off this...

If you find yourself getting angry at Hayes (you use the term "hatred" to describe your feelings towards a man you have never met or had any correspondance with as far as I know), I would gently recommend that you look to yourself. Hayes has not betrayed you, he has simply not lived up to the image you had in your mind... or rather, others have knocked him down from the lofty position he occupied in your mind. And that is not a fault of Hayes, rather it is something in yourself that needs looking at.
 

jks9199

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I started out with the long distance course. Then I flew to Japan and am here now.

Do not make my mistake. Not only do you ingrain habits before you can meet with a teacher that are hard to get rid of, but the habits Mr Hayes teaches are wrong according to all the teachers I have talked with here in Japan.

He has also been lying about his relationship with the Bujinkan and his amount of knowledge. He knows he was not a student and he claims and hints at teaching that he just never got from a real teacher.

I feel used. I know a lot of Toshindo students will not want to admit the truth. I was in their shoes. Their desire to learn is strong, but they also have an ego that says that they can learn from videos and an occasional seminar even thought Dr Hatsumi himself says you cannot learn ninjutsu from videos. I can see that I was controlled by my ego. I had to face it when it became clear that Mr Hayes was lying. It all seems to clear now, but I was so blind up until now.

I urge Toshindo home study students and those thinking about it to get away before you gain habits you cannot unlearn.
You've highlighted the dangers of video learning, rather than using a video as a help and aid -- but you've overgeneralized into painting Stephen Hayes into some kind of evil greedy monster.

I don't know the exact extent of his training -- but a fair amount of it is documented. He trained enough to have been listed by Hatsumi as a full instructor. But then he went his own way, which is not the same as Hatsumi's. I suspect Hayes also misunderstood some of the way in which things were handled, because the Japanese culture is very complex and very easy for non-Japanese to misunderstand.

You've got a chance now to learn the art directly, as it's being taught today. Focus your efforts on learning as much as you can, as correctly as you can. Don't worry about the past and your mis-steps; instead, train hard now.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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It is best not to have wild swings one way or another.

You have now found your truth and I applaud you for going to the source and training with Sensei! Congratulations on that decision! However temper your new enthusiasm with restraint and train hard but in your case maybe leave your past behind you! From all accounts Mr. Hayes only sold you a DVD course and now you find that it does not meet up to what you experience in Japan. (like very much would) That is okay but to go farther and try to nail him to the wall does you no good at all. Instead focus on your training and continue on.

One thing that is good is that you now know learning from video tapes is pretty useless without a qualified instructor to show you the way.
icon14.gif
 

Niko

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These last couple posts are a great example of what happens when someone tries to learn from tape. I think they should be stickied and possibly pasted in every thread pertaining to video learning.

That's a load of crap. All that those posts show is that HKToshindo is a little unbalanced and didn't quite know what he was getting into. If anything should be "stickied", it should be Chris Parker's most recent post!
But I do agree that any kind of home study course should be a supplement to face-to-face training and not the only form of study that the person does. But I also believe that such courses provided a valuable service for those people that aren't close enough to study regularly with an instructor teaching what they want to learn. Like anything, you get out of it what you put into it. But there is no reason why a person with some athletic ability and dedication can't take a well-constructed home study course, work on it diligently, and make trips as often as possible to get hands-on training with people connected to the course. From what I've seen, getting a Toshindo Black Belt through the home study course is no easy task. Black Belt testing is done only in person with high-ranking instructors and is taken very seriously.

Keith
 

ToShinDoKa

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From what I've seen, getting a Toshindo Black Belt through the home study course is no easy task. Black Belt testing is done only in person with high-ranking instructors and is taken very seriously.

Keith

:lool: I can testify to that statement. Heck, I drove up 9 hours (18 hrs. R.T.) to Dayton for my BB testing and found out just how much I was not ready for it. I allowed myself to get comfortable with my own ways of doing things instead of paying closer attention to the vids' advice and the advice from my friends at the closest Quest Center 4 hours away. So, I took what I'd learned from just that one day there, amped up my training to five days a week, for at least 1 1/2 each day, and visited again 6 months later. I went back thrice as confident and apparently performed thrice as well as I had the first time.

Now I'm sporting a black belt that I know I've earned. On my desk is a BB diploma that I've spent 5 years and countless hours training for. And, most importantly, I can apply what I've learned. Whether I'm rolling with my BJJ and National Guard friends, or going a round or two (or one, as I'm kinda' lazy) with some of the guys who train at my gym, I can hold my own.

Vids alone, don't recommend it. Vids as a supplement to get you at least moving the right way before you visit a Quest Center or give you ideas for training drills after you've trained with an instructor, I can testify it works pretty well.
 

TaiChiTJ

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Hayes has presented the image to his students that he wants, Hatsumi is presenting the image to his students that he wants, both are (most likely) flawed and highly biased, in the end, it doesn't really matter. Go with the teacher you feel can help you most, and don't worry about the rest.


This is excellent advice!

:ultracool
 

SensibleManiac

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I urge Toshindo home study students and those thinking about it to get away before you gain habits you cannot unlearn.

You can ALWAYS unlearn habits, it might be difficult and wouldbe easier if you learned right the first time, but the fact is that bad habits can always be unlearned.
 

Harald

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I'd have to agree with what others have stated here. I'd get a course on DVDs as a supplement to my training with a good coach / sensei / whatever, but not as a replacement. Why? Because you really can't replace that stuff with a set of DVDs. That's the harsh reality of it all.
 

TheArtofDave

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Even though its been a whooping 8 years since a reply on here I'm going to add my 2 cents regardless.

The To-Shind Do home study course has an option where you an earn rank by sending a video of yourself in performing the bunkai you've learned and it will be graded by the black belts of the system so you can progress to the next belt. They have their own colored belts. So you want to familiarize yourself with them.

It will take you four years to get to black belt. You can send in videos of yourself until you get to brown belt. You have to attend a class in person to test for black belt. To-Shin Do is not traditional ninjutsu. Its a modern take on the system.

If you were going to train you'd likely need a training partner and if you were going to video yourself for rank you better have trained each dvd for at least 4 to 5 months before doing so.
 

Martial D

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And ten years later, it turns out trying to teach yourself martial arts off the internet is still a terrible idea.
 

Tez3

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I can’t rate funny, like and agree at the same time. Why can I only choose one?

You posted funny, I'll post agree and if someone else posts like, we'll have covered all three and Martial D can understand it represents us posting on all three options.
 
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